When I was reading JI Packer back in 2016 I came across his work on the Penal Substitution theory that arose from the depths of expanding on Anslem, though like many Reformed notions, I believe this was taken to a degree that it was never intended.
I talked to a Catholic buddy over the phone about this issue/debate in more detail the other day. I understand the general topic of this debate a little bit better now. Your article/comments helped me understand the crux of this debate a little better as well. I'm going to look deeper into it. My motivation is to reconcile the two positions somehow if that is possible. I may comment again with some test cases for you to comment on. Thanks for the replies! I still leave the topic as an undecided because in many places The Bible uses verbiage that merely appears to contradict, then The Bible reconciles the subject in third-term verses located elsewhere. I want to examine if that may be the case here. There are many verses in The Bible about Wrath and Reconciliation and I leave some of them open to being about Christ, as well as New Testament verses. My position is left unchanged: undecided and open to further discussion and investigation.
Great overview and critique of PSA! This theory of the cross irks me because it is soooo easy to slip in when referencing the cross to emotionally manipulate someone. Phrases like “the Godhead is separated” or “the sins of the world were on Jesus” etc. To my understanding, the more traditional view is that Jesus offers himself as the Lamb of God and his sacrifice is ACCEPTED by the Father 🙌🙌🙌 Jesus suffered crucifixion which is horrendous but I don’t think he suffered extra spiritual suffering which PSA seems to emphasize
I have no hard position on this topic at the present time. I am a Christian and study The Bible but have not studied "theologians" per se much, because they tend to write in their own words about verses they have cherry picked that reinforce what they already think. I consider myself "cross-denominational" and believe anyone who is "sincere" in their belief-trust-faith-and-steadfast-certainty in Christ is saved, so I consider myself unified with all sincere believers. Admittedly, the word "sincere" here carries a lot more meaning than the word might initially suggest, and I don't have time to go into that now. I attend Catholic service with my dad's side of the family and have attended a Southern Baptist church regularly since 6th grade.
Back to the topic of theologians and limited interpretations: there are many verse in The Bible that merely appear to "contradict." Example:
A. "Love... Believes All Things." B. "Do Not Believe All The Spirits but Test The Spirits." So if one theologian took verse A. and another took verse B. and then they each searched for other verses that reinforced their position they might create two "Sects" or "A Division" in The Church. In doing so both would, as The Proverb states, have been: "Hasty, and Missed The Way" because in Acts Paul appears to qualify the statement: "Love... Believes All Things" by also saying that he "Believes All Things, *WRITTEN IN THE LAW AND IN THE PROPHETS." There may be more to this as well but I'll leave that as an example of where two verses merely "appear" to contradict in isolation but with a more holistic search the two verses become reconciled again. It may be the same with "Faith and Works" or your "Work of Faith, Labor of Love, Prompted by The Hope Stored Up in you." Or in other words, "It is God Who Works In you, To Will-Desire and Act, According to His Good Desire-and-Will." So there is no "work of the letter of the law" to be done, but God Works in His people to Will and Act: to be kind, generous, lead, encourage, be at peace, forgive, pay attention to learn from Him, etc. etc.
Regarding Penal Substitution, Christus Victor, and Atonement, I just have some thoughts or questions regarding the rejection of penal substitution, although I don't fully understand what the theologians mean by it because I haven't studied them:
You write that: "Penal substitution presupposes that God’s justice demands punishment. Yet, if justice is satisfied through Christ, ongoing suffering and death appear inconsistent with “wrath extinguished. Orthodox theology challenges this by suggesting that God’s justice is restorative, not retributive. The cross reconciles humanity to God, rather than simply satisfying divine wrath."
Here are some verse to consider or work into the equation, that may indicate the Cross does Both, and there are a lot more verses than this of course. It is difficult to write a summary of all the verses out in my own words because there is a lot to it. But it seems that to strictly limit the work of The Cross with any theological summaries runs the risk of leaving a lot out. I do think the Christus Victor position is also correct in terms of His Victory by The Cross and Resurrection.
Regarding "retributive justice" and substitutionary atonement: Isaiah 53, But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."
2 Corinthians 5:21: God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Hebrews 9:28
so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
Galatians 3:13 states, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.
The word "penal" above seems to combine "punishment" and "wrath" when they are separate. Christ seems to have absorbed the wrath but we are punished/suffer as discipline. 1 Thess. 5:9: God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jeremiah 10:24: Discipline [which means Afflict] me, LORD, but only in due measure— not in your Wrath, or you will reduce me to nothing.
Hebrews 12:7: Endure suffering-Affliction-and-hardship as Discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
1 Peter 3:14,
if you should suffer-or-be-Afflicted for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear what they fear; do not be shaken.”
1 Cor. 11:31-32: Yet when we are Judged by the Lord, we are being Disciplined [Afflicted] so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
Proverbs 27:6: "Wounds-and-Bruises from a Friend are Faithful-and-Can-Be-Trusted.
Again: 1 Cor. 11:31-32: Yet when we are *Judged* by the Lord, we are being Disciplined [Afflicted]
1 Peter 4:17-18: For it is time for *Judgment* [Discipline/Affliction/Suffering but not Wrath] to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God? / And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
Proverbs 11:31: "If the righteous receive their due [retributive or in due measure to a degree] on earth, how much more the wicked and the sinner.
So although we have not been Appointed to Wrath, we still Suffer and are Afflicted and Die, because "The Last Enemy to be Defeated is Death." For He must Reign until He has put everything under His Feet. (Death is Last).
Psalm 119:71: It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees.
Psalm 119:67: Before I was Afflicted I went Astray, but now I Obey Your Commands.
And regarding Death still being in the world: "The Last Enemy to be Defeated is Death." But there are two kinds of death and to combine them is a mistake.
But, Luke 20:38 New International Version (NIV)
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for All are Alive to Him.
Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
Romans 14:9
For this reason Christ died and returned to life, that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. / And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
I agree with your point about the importance of reconciling Scripture holistically rather than isolating verses to support predetermined conclusions. As you mentioned, verses like “Love… believes all things” (1 Corinthians 13:7) and “Do not believe every spirit” (1 John 4:1) can seem contradictory when isolated, yet harmonize within the broader context of Scripture. Similarly, theological interpretations like penal substitution must consider not just isolated proof texts but the overarching biblical narrative of creation, fall, redemption, and restoration.
You raise an important point when you suggest that God’s justice might encompass both retributive and restorative dimensions. However, I would challenge the assumption that these must coexist in a symmetrical way. In many theological traditions, including Catholic and Orthodox views, God’s justice is primarily understood as restorative. For example, the justice described in Isaiah 53 (“by His wounds, we are healed”) focuses on healing and restoration rather than punishment in a purely retributive sense.
The penal substitution model presupposes that justice necessitates punishment, with Christ taking our place. Yet, if justice were solely about retribution, the idea of God forgiving sin (Psalm 103:10) would seem inconsistent. Instead, God’s justice appears more relational and covenantal, aiming to restore humanity and creation to right relationship with Him (2 Corinthians 5:18-19).
You propose a distinction between Christ absorbing wrath and believers enduring discipline. While this is an interesting framework, it risks separating God’s actions in a way Scripture does not always support. For instance, Hebrews 12:6-7 emphasizes discipline as an act of fatherly love, not wrath. If Christ has fully reconciled us to God (Romans 5:1), then any remaining suffering we endure is not punitive but transformative, drawing us deeper into conformity with Christ (Romans 8:29).
Moreover, the idea of “wrath” in Scripture is often misunderstood. In Catholic and Orthodox theology, God’s wrath is not an emotional outburst but a metaphor for His opposition to sin and its destructive effects. Christ’s work on the cross is not about “absorbing” wrath as much as defeating sin, death, and the devil (Christus Victor) while opening the path for humanity to be united with God.
Isaiah 53 is a central text in discussions of atonement, and your citation of “the punishment that brought us peace was on Him” is important. However, this verse need not be read solely through the lens of penal substitution. Many Church Fathers interpreted this passage as emphasizing Christ’s self-giving love and the redemptive power of His suffering. His “punishment” is not about satisfying divine wrath but about bearing the consequences of sin to heal and restore humanity.
Additionally, 2 Corinthians 5:21 (“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us”) does not necessarily imply substitutionary punishment. Instead, it reflects Christ entering fully into the human condition, taking on the burden of sin to transform and sanctify it.
You rightly point out that suffering remains a reality for believers, as seen in passages like Hebrews 12:7 and 1 Peter 4:17. However, this suffering is not indicative of God’s wrath but part of the sanctification process. In Catholic theology, this aligns with the concept of redemptive suffering, where believers participate in Christ’s suffering for the sake of their own sanctification and the good of the Church (Colossians 1:24).
You make an excellent observation about the distinction between physical and spiritual death. Christ’s victory over death does not eliminate physical death immediately, as 1 Corinthians 15:26 notes that the “last enemy” to be defeated is death. However, spiritual death—separation from God—has been definitively overcome through Christ’s resurrection. In this sense, believers who are united with Christ “never die” (John 11:26) because they remain in communion with the living God.
Your reflections underscore the complexity of atonement theology and the need to approach it with humility and openness. While I share your appreciation for the Christus Victor model, I find the penal substitution framework inadequate because it risks reducing God’s justice to a transactional concept of retribution. Instead, the cross is best understood as the culmination of God’s restorative work—a victory over sin, death, and the devil, as well as the reconciliation of humanity to Himself. Not to mention it was held by zero church father.
Great reply! I'm going to reply with a few more questions for the sake of learning, but may include some challenges. I think C.S. Lewis was an advocate of Christus Victor and he is one of my favorite non-Biblical authors so I respect the position, but can't seem to see why it has to be "one or the other," as well as why Christ crucified can't also be a thousand other things/symbols/effects/etc. -as Christ was lifted up and drew all men to Himself, and as He is the Capstone and all things hold together in Him, as it was also a "Baptism." As it says in Luke 1250: "I have a Baptism to be Baptized with, and how Distressed I Am, until it is Completed."
1. You write that, "However, I would challenge the assumption that these must coexist in a symmetrical way." I agree in that I do not know about the symmetry of the two things per se, but I'm taking the position that it could be possible for both to be true, and I'm seeking to understand why Christ could not have both suffered the wrath for us and been given victory over sin and death resulting in reconciliation. In other words I'm leaving a question mark on the question of "why can't they both be true" until I myself understand it better.
1 Peter 3:18 seems to include both concepts, of Penal Substitution AND Christus Victor: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, ***the righteous for the unrighteous [Penal Substitution],*** <<<to bring you to God [Christus Victor].>>> He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit."
Thus, it appears it may have been Penal Substitution in the flesh and Christus Victor in The Spirit.
Regarding wrath being a problem of The Trinity, let me know why this is the case. Here are some verses that "might relate" to that subject, followed by some very abstract verses that put the following combination in more context.
Proverbs 20:5,
The Purposes of a man's Heart, are Deep Waters.
Psalm 42:7,
Deep Calls To Deep!
Proverbs 3:20,
By His Knowledge, The Deeps were Divided...!
Mark 15:34,
And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice:
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?—which means, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?”
Proverbs 3:20,
By His Knowledge, The Deeps were Divided...!
Psalm 22:1,
O My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?
Why are you so far from saving Me, so far from The Words of My groaning?
The moral of the crying out to God no matter what may be that of Perseverance or Never Give Up.
Psalm 38:8,
I Groan, because of the Anguish of My heart!
At the same time, according to Hebrews 12:2,
For the joy set before Him he endured the cross, scorning its shame...
Psalm 69:17,
Do Not Hide Your Face, From Your Servant!
Answer Me Quickly, for I Am in Trouble!
38:13-14,
I Am like a Mute Man.
I Am like a Man who Does Not Hear!
Psalm 22:16,
They Have Pierced My Hands…!
Isaiah 49:16,
I Have, Engraved you, on The Palms of My Hands…
Psalm 22:16,
They Have Pierced… and My Feet!
Job 13:27,
You Engrave the Soles of my Feet!
Psalm 119:61 continues,
…the wicked bind Me with ropes…
Job 16:8,
You have bound Me—and it has become a Witness.
Job 16:7,
My eyes grow dim with grief.
…My whole frame is but a shadow.
Psalm 109:22,
My body is thin and gaunt….
Job 16:8,
My gauntness rises up, and testifies against Me.
Isaiah 52:13,
…He will be raised, and lifted up…
John 3:14,
…as Moses, Lifted Up, The Serpent in The Desrt-Wilderness, so must the Son of Man be Lifted Up.
Psalm 22:14,
All My bones are out of joint!
Psalm 22:17,
I can count all My bones!
And people stare and gloat over Me.
Psalm 22:17-19,
They divide My garments among them, and cast lots for My clothing.
But you Lord, be not far off; O My Strength, come quickly to help Me!
Psalm 28:3,
Do not drag Me away with the wicked…
Psalm 26:8,
I love the place where you live, O Lord!
The place where Your glory dwells!
Psalm 26:1,
Vindicate Me, Lord, for I have led a blameless life;
I have trusted in the Lord, without wavering!
Psalm 22:9-10,
You brought Me out of the womb!
From birth I was cast upon You.
From My mother’s womb, You have been My God!
You made Me trust in You, even at My mother’s breast!
Psalm 71:6,
From birth I have relied on You;
You brought Me forth, from My mother’s womb.
I will ever praise you!
Psalm 22:11-13,
Do not be far from Me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help!
Many bulls surround Me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle Me.
Roaring lions tearing their prey, they open their mouths wide against Me.
Psalm 22:16,
Dogs have surrounded Me; a band of evil men has encircled Me.
Rescue Me from the mouth of the lions; save Me from the horns of the wild oxen…
Job 23:16-17,
God has made My heart faint.
The Almighty has terrified Me.
Yet I Am not silenced, by the darkness that covers My face.
Psalm 26:2-3 and Psalm 139:23,
Test Me, Lord, and try Me, examine My heart and My mind;
For Your love is ever before Me, and I walk continually in Your Truth…
My flesh and My heart may fail, but God is the strength of My heart, and My portion forever!
Job 19:26,
After My skin has been destroyed, yet in My flesh, I will see God.
I Myself will see Him, with My own eyes—I, and not another!
How My heart yearns within Me!
Psalm 71:3,
Be My Rock and refuge, to which I can always go!
Psalm 22:3,
You are Enthroned, as The Holy One!
You are, The Praise of Israel, but I Am a Worm and Not a Man, Scorned by men and Despised, by The People.
Job 25:6,
…a man, who is but a maggot—a Son of Man, who is only a worm!
Psalm 43:5 and Psalm 42:5-6 say the same, twice,
Why are you so downcast, O My soul?
Why so disturbed within Me?
Put your hope in God, for I will praise Him yet, My Savior and My God!
Psalm 71:20-21,
Though you have made Me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore My Life again.
From the depths of the earth, you will again bring Me up.
You will increase My honor and comfort Me once again.
Psalm 42:7,
Deep calls to Deep!
Psalm 103:17,
…from Everlasting to Everlasting, the Lord’s Love is with those who fear Him!
Psalm 90:2,
…from Everlasting to Everlasting, You are God!
Palm 89:52,
Praise be to the Lord, forever!
Amen, and Amen.
Revelation 3:2,
These are the Words of the Amen,
The Faithful and True Witness,
The Beginning of, The Creation of God.
Psalm 28:1,
To You I call, O Lord, My Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to Me!
If you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down into the pit!
Psalm 22:7-8,
All who see Me mock Me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
He trusts in the Lord; let the Lord save Him. Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him.
Psalm 109:1-3 continues,
I Am an object of scorn to My accusers; when they see Me they shake their heads.
Psalm 38:11,
Even My loved ones and friends stand aloof, in full sight of My Affliction…!
John 19:25-27,
Near the cross, stood Jesus mother [Mary, which means “Strong Waters”], his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw His mother there, and the Disciple whom He loved, standing nearby, He said to His mother:
Dear woman, here is your son.
And to the Disciple:
Here is your mother.
From that time on, this Disciple took her into his home.
Psalm 38:11,
My own Kinsman, Stand in The Distance.
Luke 23:49,
All those who Knew Him, including The Women who Had Followed Him from Galilee,
Stood at a Distance, Watching, These Things.
Psalm 41:9,
And, My Close Friend, whom I Trusted, he who Shared My Bread,
Has Lifted Up his Heel, Against Me!
Psalm 69:14,
Deliver Me from those who Hate Me [in the Intentions of their Hearts], from Deep Waters!
My Heart is Beating Violently, it Throbs Wildly within Me!
Psalm 22:14,
My Heart, has Turned to Wax!
It Has Melted Away, Within Me!
Psalm 69:20,
Scorn, has Broken My Heart.
Psalm 38:8,
I Am, Going Numb!
I Am, Greatly Bruised, and Deathly Cold!
Psalm 38:10,
Even, The Light, is Gone from My Eyes…
Psalm 38:17,
I Am, Ready to Fall…
Proverbs 24:17,
Do Not Gloat, when your Enemy Falls, when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice, or the Lord will see, and disapprove, and turn His wrath away from him [your enemy].
Proverbs 24:29,
Do not say, “I’ll do to him as he has done to me; I’ll pay that man back for what he did.
Matthew 7:1-2,
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Proverbs 17:5,
He who rejoices at calamity will not go unpunished…
1 Kings 3:11,
[you have not] …Asked For, The Death of your Enemies, but, For Discernment in Administering Justice…
Zechariah 7:9,
This, is What The Lord Almighty Says:
Administer True Justice: Show Mercy and Compassion to one another!
2 Chronicles 1:11,
…you Have Not Asked For… The Death of your Enemies…
Proverbs 17:9,
He who Covers Over an Offense Promotes Love, but whoever Repeats The Matter Separates Close Friends.
Matthew 23:34,
And Jesus said, “Father, Forgive Them, for they Know Not, What they Do.”
Job 31:29,
Have I Rejoiced, at The Destruction of those who Hated Me?
I Have Not Allowed My Mouth to Sin, by Invoking a Curse Against My Enemy’s Life…
Psalm 22:31,
He Has Done It!
John 19:30,
When He Had Received, The Drink, Jesus Said,
“It Is Finished!”
With That, He He Bowed His Head, and Gave Up His Spirit.
Matthew 27:50,
And, when Jesus had Cried Out Again, in A Loud Voice,
He Gave Up His Spirit.
Psalm 31:5,
Into Your Hands, I Commit My Spirit!
Luke 23:46,
Jesus called out with a loud voice:
Father, Into Your Hands, I Commit My Spirit!
Luke 23:46,
When He had Said This,
He Breathed, His Last.
Mark 15:37,
With a Loud Cry, Jesus Breathed, His Last.
Isaiah 42:14,
…like, A Woman In Childbirth, I Cry Out, I Gasp, and Pant.
Jeremiah 4:31 continues, from the perspective of the anti-type,
I hear a cry, as of a woman in labor, a groan, as of one bearing her First Child—the cry of Daughter Zion, gasping for breath, stretching out her hands, and saying:
Alas! I am fainting. My life is given over to murderers.
Job 11:20 continues, noting that the same thing Daughter Zion did to Christ, her First Child, would soon be done to her by way of the Roman Siege of Jerusalem,
But the eyes of the wicked will fail [as they blindfolded Christ], and escape will elude them.
Their hope will become a dying gasp.
John 19:31-34,
Now it was the Day of Preparation, and the next day was to be *a special Sabbath.*
Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
But, when they Came to Jesus, and Found that He was Already Dead, they Did Not Break His Legs.
Instead, one of the Soldiers Pierced Jesus’ Side with A Spear,
Bringing a Sudden Flow, of Blood and Water.
Job 16:13 says the same, but from the perspective of the anti-type,
…Without Pity, He Pierces My Kidneys, and Spills My Gall [bitterness and poison] on The Ground.
Job 24-25 continues from the perspective of the anti-type,
Though he Flees from an Iron Tipped Weapon,
A Bronze Tipped Arrow Pierces him.
He Pulls It, Out of his Back, The Gleaming Point, Out of his Liver.
Terrors will Come Over him; Total Darkness Lies in Wait for his Treasures.
Proverbs 7:23,
…an Arrow Pierces his Liver…
Psalm 79:3 foretells,
They Have, Poured Out Blood, like Water…
Deuteronomy 15:23,
But, you Must Not Eat The Blood;
Pour It Out on The Ground like Water. [23]
1 John 5:6,
This is the One Who Came by Water and Blood—Jesus Christ.
He Did Not Come by Water Only, but by Water and Blood.
Yet, No One in His Generation, Thought Anymore About His Destiny,
For, He was Cut Off, from The Land of The Living,
Struck, for The Sins, of My People.
Job 24:20, from the perspective of the anti-type, the wicked, whom Jesus was treated like,
…evil men are no longer remembered, but are broken, like a tree.
Isaiah 53:9-10 continues,
He died with the wicked and was assigned the grave of a rich man in His death, although He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth.
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush Him, to cause Him to suffer [to take the fall for us].
Job 21:32 continues, from the perspective of the anti-type,
He is carried to the grave, and watch is kept over his tomb.
Job 6:12,
Am I, The Sea, or The Monster of The Deep, that you Put Me, Under Guard?
Isaiah 53:4-6 continues,
Although He took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, we considered Him stricken by God, smitten by Him, and afflicted.
But He was pierced for our transgressions.
He was bruised and crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brings us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid upon Him the consequences that should have befallen all of us.
Isaiah 53:2-3,
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to Him, nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him.
He was hated and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces, He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Numbers 9:11-12,
They, are to Eat The Lamb, Together with The Unleavened Bread and Bitter Herbs.
They, Must Not Leave Any of It, Till Morning, or Break Any of Its Bones.
When They, Celebrate Passover, they Must Follow, All The Regulations.
John 19:32-34,
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
But, when they Came to Jesus, and Found that He was Already Dead,
They Did Not Break His Legs.
Psalm 34:19-20,
The Righteous Man, may Have Many Troubles,
But, The Lord Delivers Him, from Them All.
He Protects All His Bones, Not One of Them, will Be Broken!
John 19:31,
Now, it was, The Day of Preparation, and,
The Next Day, was to be, A Special Sabbath.
Numbers 9:4-5, states that the Passover is usually to be celebrated on the Fourteenth Day of the First Month,
So, Moses Told, The Israelites, to Celebrate The Passover, and they did so, in the Desert-Wilderness of Sinai,
At Twilight, on The Fourteenth Day of the First Month.
Numbers 9:9-12, gives a loophole, for another day, however,
Then, The Lord Said to Moses,
“Tell, The Israelites: ‘When any of you or your Descendants are Unclean because of a Dead Body or are Away on A Journey, they May Still Celebrate, The Lord’s Passover.
They are to Celebrate It On,
The Fourteenth Day of The Second Month, At Twilight.
They are to Eat, The Lamb, Together with Unleavened Bread and Bitter Herbs.
They Must Not Leave Any of It, Till Morning or Break Any of Its Bones.
When they Celebrate Passover, they Must Follow All The Regulations.
John 19:31,
Now, it was, The Day of Preparation, and,
The Next Day, was to be, A Special Sabbath.
Three Days in the Heart of the Earth
Matthew 12:40,
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of Great Fish [or sea monster], so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Psalm 88:5-6,
I Am set apart with the dead, like the slain, who lie in the grave, whom You remember no more, who are cut off from Your care.
You have put Me in the lowest pit, in the darkest depths.
Your wrath lies heavily upon Me.
Jonah 2:3,
You hurled me into the heart of the seas.
Psalm 88:7-18
You have overwhelmed Me with all your waves.
You have taken from Me My closest friends, and have made Me repulsive to them.
I Am confined, and cannot escape.
My eyes are dim with grief.
I call to you, O Lord, every day; I spread out My hands to You.
Do you show your wonders to the dead?
Do those who are dead, rise up and praise You?
Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction [Abaddon]?
Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the Land of Oblivion?
But I cry to you for help, O Lord!
In the morning My prayer comes before You.
Why, O Lord, do you reject Me, and hide You face from Me?
From My youth I have been afflicted, and close to death.
I have suffered Your terrors, and I Am in despair.
Your wrath has swept over Me.
Your terrors have destroyed Me.
All day long, they surround Me, like a flood, they have completely engulfed Me.
You have taken My companions, and loved ones, from Me.
The darkness is My closest friend.
Psalm 144:5-11,
Part Your Heavens, O Lord, and come down!
Touch the mountains, so that they smoke!
Send forth lightning and scatter the enemies!
Shoot Your arrows and route them!
Reach down Your Hand from On High!
Deliver Me and rescue Me from the mighty waters, from the hands of foreigners, whose mouths are full of lies, whose right hands are deceitful!
I will sing a New Song to You, O God!
On the Ten Stringed Lyre, I will make music to You, to the One who gives victory to Kings, who delivers His servant, David, from the deadly sword!
Psalm 89:48-52 continues,
What man can live, and not see death, or save Himself from Sheol [the grave]?
O Lord, where is Your former great love, which in Your Faithfulness, You promised to David?
Remember, O Lord, how your Servant has been mocked, how I bear the taunts of all the nations, the taunts with which Your enemies have mocked, O Lord, which they have mocked every step of Your Anointed One.
Praise be to the Lord, forever and ever!
Amen and Amen.
The Resurrection
Isaiah 53:11 continues,
Yet after the suffering of His soul, He will again see the Light of Life, and be fulfilled; and by His knowledge My Righteous Servant will justify many, because He will bear their iniquities.
And after the Lord gives His soul as a guilt offering, He will see His Holy Seed [Holy Offspring, those who have His Word?], and prolong His days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in His Hand.
Psalm 119:62,
At midnight I rise, [“chatsoth”] to give You thanks for Your Righteous Laws!
I Am a friend to all who fear You, to all who follow Your Precepts!
Thus, Psalm 119:62 is the anti-type of Exodus 11:4-5 and Job 34:20 and 25,
…About midnight [“chatsoth”] I will go throughout Egypt [the world, which is a slave to sin]. Every firstborn in Egypt [like the Great City?] will die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sits on the Throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is [grinding] at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. [Exodus 11:4-5]
They die in an instant, in the middle of the night [“chatsoth,” division, middle, midnight ]; the people are shaken and they pass away like grass. [Job 34:20]
…He takes note of their deeds, He overthrows them in the night, and they are crushed. [Job 34:25]
Psalm 18:6 and 2 Samuel 22,
I cried to My God for help; from His Temple, He heard My voice!
My cry came before Him, into His ears!
Psalm 18:4-5 and 2 Samuel
The cords of death entangle[d] Me!
The torrents of destruction overwhelm[ed] Me!
The cords of the grave [or Sheol] coil[ed] around Me!
The snares of death confront[ed] Me!
Psalm 18:8-13 and 2 Samuel,
Smoke rose from His nostrils. Consuming fire came from His mouth, burning coals blazed out of it!
He mounted the Cherubim and flew! He soared on the Wings of the Wind!
He parted the Heavens and came down; dark clouds were under His feet.
He made darkness His covering, His canopy around Him—the dark rain clouds of the sky!
Out of the brightness of His presence the clouds advanced, with hailstones and bolts of lightning!
The Lord thundered from Heaven!
The Voice of the Most High resounded!
Psalm 18:7 and 2 Samuel,
The earth trembled and quaked, the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because He was angry!
Psalm 18:15 and 2 Samuel,
The valleys of the sea were exposed, and the foundations of the earth laid bare at your rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of breath from your nostrils!
Psalm 18:14,
He shot His arrows and scattered the enemies, great bolts of lightning and routed them!
Job 25:5-6,
Sheol is naked before God!
Destruction lies uncovered!
Psalm 18 and 2 Samuel 22,
He reached down from on high and took hold of me!
He drew Me up, out of Deep Waters!
Psalm 30:3,
O Lord, You brought Me up from the grave, from Sheol!
You spared Me from going down into the Pit!
Psalm 116:16,
You freed Me from My chains!
Psalm 30:2,
O Lord, My God, I called to You for help, and You healed Me!
Job 12:18,
He takes the shackles off put on by Kings [or takes shackles off of Kings], and ties a loincloth [or belt] around their [naked] waist.
Job 12:15,
If He holds back the waters, there is drought; if He lets them loose, they devastate the land!
Proverbs 10:25 and 30,
When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone, but the Righteous stand firm, forever! [25]
The Righteous will never be uprooted, but the wicked will not remain in the land! [30]
Job 11:13,
…if you devote your heart to Him, and stretch out your hands to Him, if you put away the sin that is in your hand, and allow no evil to dwell in your tent, then you will lift up your face without shame!
You will stand firm, and without fear!
You will surely forget your trouble, as Waters gone by!
Job 26:5,
The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters…
Zechariah 9:11-12,
Because of the blood of My Covenant with You, I will free Your prisoners from the waterless Pit [cistern or well that holds no water because it is broken, also represents a waterless, lifeless, dirt clod heart].
Return to your Fortress, O Prisoners of Hope; even now, I announce that I will restore Double to you!
Genesis 37:23-24 notes that this event refers to the House of Joseph, as Joseph was thrown into the waterless pit,
So when Joseph [meaning Jehovah Doubles], came to this brothers, they stripped him of the robe he was wearing—and they took him and threw him into the cistern [well or pit]. Now the cistern [well or pit] was empty; there was no water in it.
Psalm 107:14-20,
You led the captives in your train, as you ascended on High!
He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom, and broke their chains…
He broke down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron…
He sent forth His Word, and healed them. He rescued them from the grave!
1 Peter 3:18-22,
For Christ died for sins once, for all, the Righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made Alive by the Spirit, through whom also He went and preached to the Spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the Ark was being built. In it, only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism, that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into Heaven and is at God’s Right Hand—with Angels, Authorities, and Powers in submission to Him.
1 Peter 4:5-6.
…they will have to give account to Him who is ready to judge the Living and the dead. For this is the reason the Gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but Live according to God in regard to the Spirit.
2 Peter 2:4
Job 26:11-14,
The pillars of Heaven quake, aghast at His rebuke. By His power He churned up the sea; by His wisdom He cut Rahab to pieces…
His hand pierced the Gliding Serpent!
Who can understand the Thunder of His power?
Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? Let Him who accuses God answer Him!
Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Have you seen the Gates of the Shadow of Death? Have the Gates of Death been shown to you?
Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the Womb [of the Dawn?], and set its bars and doors in place?
Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?
Do you send lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, “Here we are!”?
2 Samuel 14:14,
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life. Rather, He devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from Him!
Psalm 68:10,
…Our God is a God who saves!
From the Sovereign Lord comes escape from death!
Psalm 30:1,
I will exalt You O Lord! You lifted Me out of the depths, and did not let My enemies gloat over Me.
Psalm 22:23,
You who fear the Lord, praise Him!
Psalm 22:24,
…For He has not despised or disdained the suffering of the Afflicted One. He has not hidden His face from Him, but has listened to His cry for help…!
Psalm 18 and 2 Samuel 22,
He rescued Me from My powerful enemy, from My foes who were too strong for Me. They confronted Me in the day of disaster, but the Lord was My support. He brought Me out, to a Spacious Place…!
Psalm 34:19-20,
The Righteous Man may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers Him from them all. He protects all His bones, not one of them will be broken!
Psalm 34:18,
The Lord is close to the brokenhearted, and those crushed in Spirit!
Psalm 30:5,
Weeping may remain for a night, but rejoicing comes in the morning!
Psalm 24:7-10,
Lift up your heads, O you Gates; be lifted up you Ancient Doors, so that the King of Glory may come in!
Who is this King of Glory?
The Lord, strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle!
Lift up your heads, O you Gates; lift them up you Ancient Doors, so that the King of Glory may come in!
Who is He, this King of Glory?
The Lord Almighty—He is the King of Glory!
Psalm 118:19-20,
Open for Me the Gates of Righteousness!
I will enter and give thanks to the Lord!
This is the Gate of the Lord, through which the Righteous may enter!
John 10:9,
I Am the Gate!
Whoever enters through Me will be saved!
John 10:3,
His Watchman opens the Gate for Him!
Psalm 118:19-22,
You have not handed Me over to the enemy, but have set My feet in a Spacious Place!
The Stone the builders rejected, has become the Capstone!
You have become My Salvation!
I will give thanks, for You answered Me!
Psalm 61:6,
Increase the days of the King’s Life, His years for many generations!
May He be enthroned in God’s presence, forever!
Appoint Your love and faithfulness to protect Him!
Then I will ever sing praise to Your Name, and fulfill My vows, day after day!
For someone who says they haven’t studied the subject your comment does a great job of presenting balance. There is a problem with seeing the cross as solely PSA or Christus Victor. It is not one to the exclusion of the other. Like many other questions that are posed in either/or terms the answer is often both. A lot more was happening on the cross than just PSA. Jesus also disarmed the rulers of this world, putting those principalities and powers to open shame (Col 2:15).
I resonate with your comment for sure, it’s why I take Anslem’s digression. Basically “Yeah PSA can make sense, but historically was never taught, therefore I lean away from it”. Theories are fun, but we should be careful to adopt them solely because they make sense. That is but 1 criteria of many.
(2 posts because the comments only allow 3rd grade level discussion) I had not studied Penal Substition at all until I read this post, but I remember C.S. Lewis was pro-Christus Victor, and perhaps "more." I have studied Natural Law a lot however, especially through Etienne Gilson's "The Christian Philosophy of The Natural Law" (which I highly recommend) and I've read a lot about St. Thomas Aquinas (I need to finish The Dumb Ox by Chesterton).
I have sort of resolved to stick to what The Bible says, as it says it. I'm not claiming "Sola Scriptura" here however, per se, but rather stating that I see so much in The Bible itself that has been overlooked and left not understood. After seeing how little is understood in The Book, and how many people are so strict about what they think even though they understand so little of The Bible itself, that I caution myself against getting caught up in (or distracted by) "theology" debates per se (defined here as men stating creeds in much of their own words) because I just don't think our formal words tend to "weave into" the concepts of The Scriptures. At our Sunday School study group I often find people saying things in their own words that almost completely sync up with a particular Bible verse and verses, in which case I'll usually quote the verses out loud to encourage them by making it clearer to them, how much their statement is similar to the way of thinking in The Bible down to the verse. This really seems to encourage them.
The problems with various theologies that I see is that so many times Bible verses appear to contradict but then are reconciled by third term verses located elsewhere, because The Bible is written in a sort of 3D. As G.K. Chesterton wrote: "The mind of man is Stereoscopic, like his physical sight: he sees two separate pictures at once, yet sees all the better for that."
Anyway, usually one "theology" will take all the verses that say one thing and make arguments in favor of them in their own words. Then, another "theologian" will take the verses that say the opposite, and craft his own opposite "theology" and then the two will declare each other "anathema" or perhaps, just "wrong." But if you look deeper you can reconcile the two verse sets with a third term verse set, because usually both "theologians based their arguments on a set of verses in the first place. That ought to be the work of "theology" and it would be a work of "peace" and "reconciliation," that would have eternal impact. Another issue is that the whole Bible is synoptic: one verse says almost the same thing as another, but each verse adds a detail the other leaves out, and when combined or "calculated" or "added up" they tell a more complete story. Quick example of this. One Proverbs says: "He who stops listening to the truth will stray from the path." Another says: "He who strays from the path will come to rest in the company of the dead." So if I were to combine these two verses and say, "He who stops listening to the truth will come to rest in the company of the dead" which I don't think is a Bible verse in and of itself, but it would still be correct, even though it left out a detail. There are also many synonyms that if you don't know are synonyms, it won't process in your mind that the verses are related. And the verses with the synonyms also add details, that the other verses with the other synonyms left out, just like the Proverbs above! And those who don't see the synonyms will not accept the rebuttal because they are "blind" to the connections in the synonyms. I'm writing this in the hope that whoever reads this will look into these things and keep them in mind when they read The Bible. Example of synonyms, "Make your Face Shine upon your Servant" means that same thing as "May The Favor of The Lord Rest upon us" and also means the same thing as "Save me" and "Teach me Your Decrees" and "Speak and Answer me." These are all synonyms. If I speak to a strict interpreter (about a disputable matter) who does not even hint at a consciousness of the synonyms and their impact on the "theological" discussion I think to myself, "they can't hear what I'm trying to say because they haven't connected the synonyms. So they can't communicate on this level about the subject. They think I'm speaking gibberish! Darn it.
The best way I can describe learning the Bible is that it is a "Meta-Language" or a language that can overlay any language because it is a language of "figuratives, synonyms, analogy, and similes" etc. Example 1: These things may be taken Figuratively! For, the women represent Two Covenants!" And Example 2: "Those who Trust in The Lord are as Mount Zion" and Jesus confirms that we will "Worship in Spirit and Truth." Thus, we are, "Mount Zion" and we are "A Royal Priesthood" and as Kings we are also "Mountains." Revelation even states this although it is referring to the "bad kings" when it says: "The Seven Heads are Seven Hills. They are also Seven Kings." There also tends to be a good individual type and bad individual type and a good group type and bad group type in the Bible and the same thing happens to both, but it ends oppositely for them. The good suffer in this life and are taken into glory. The bad have glory in this life and are taken into suffering [or they can both be true at the same time but not in the same respect, if you distinguish fleshly suffering from spiritual glory vs. fleshly glory and spiritual numbness which is like suffering, although they are numb]. Examples of good type and bad type and good and bad group type: 1. Christ and Anti-Christ 2. Lion of Tribe of Judah and "your enemy The Devil who Prowls about like a Roaring Lion" 3. Wife of Noble Character [True Church] and Adulteress/Prostitute (False Assembly, a married woman who sells herself to cheat. I would list more example of good and bad individual and group types but comment will be too long.
Much of the Bible even doubles as a Dictionary of itself. As when Phillip says in John 14:8-9, "SHOW us The Father..." and Jesus replies, "Don't you KNOW Me, Phillip." So, the Dictionary side of The Bible is dog whistling to those who have ears to hear that to be "Shown" and to "Know" are closely related concepts and almost interchangeable. And there are many, many examples like this.
EXAMPLE:
One example below of verses that people get crazy about how they interpret, but look at all the verses they have OVERLOOKED related to the same subject.
Point: We all GOTTA LOOK DEEPER. Example: Usually when I ask people "can anyone know about that day or hour"? They say "No!" Because it says "***No man knows*** about that day or hour, not even the Angels in Heaven nor The Son, but Only The Father." Then they shut down and accept that the answer is a strong "No!"
HOWEVERRR... if you look deeper this is even called into question. As it also says, "***No man knows*** The Thoughts of God, except The Spirit of God. BUT, we have not been given the spirit that is of the world, but The Spirit that is Of-and-From God, that we May Understand, What He Has, Freely Given us!"
In addition, although Jesus Says that "Only The Father" knows about that Day or Hour, He then says that on a Certain Day, you will ASK THE FATHER, not The Son! So then, could John 16:23 and 25-26 apply? I’m not 100% sure, but think there is a strong possibility for further reasons explained below (I say all this because it replies to the theory of the Atonement, because there could be a lot we have overlooked, which is why I'm saying "I don't know" but I do need to read the PSA argument more closely because I've never looked into it. If it is absurd it is absurd, if it is a conclusion come to by synonyms then it could be valid. I don't know now, but want all of us to look deeper into everything with the goal of overcoming divisions, especially over particularly disputable matters (not sure if this is one). Example continued about "Can we Know That Day or Hour":
In, That Day, you will No Longer, Ask Me, Anything [Jesus Said].
I Tell you, The Truth,
The Father will Give you, Anything, you Ask,
In My Name. […]
Ask, and you will Receive, and your Joy will be Complete.
[…The remaining verse qualify "when" you will Ask The Father]
A Time is Coming, when I will… Tell you, Plainly About My Father.
In, That Day, you Will Ask, in My Name. I'm not saying that I will Ask The Father on your Behalf. No, The Father Himself Loves you, because you Loved Me...!"
So then, if "That Day" that we Ask The Father Himself, who Does Know about The Day or Hour and if "That Day" that we Ask, is before "That Day or Hour" or at the same time as It, then it is possible The Father will tell us, when we Ask, at The Proper Time. In addition...
May, ***The Favor*** of The Lord Our God, Rest Upon us!
Establish Our Work, for us!
Thus, take note of the word "Favor", because according to Matthew 24:37,
As it Was, in The Days of Noah,
So will it Be, At The Coming of, The Son of Man.
How was it then in The Days of Noah? Genesis 6:8,
Noah, Found ****Favor,**** in The Eye of The Lord!
Genesis 6:13 indicates that when Noah found Favor in God’s Sight, God Spoke to Noah,
So, God Answered-Spoke-and-Gave-News, to Noah,
“I Am Going to Pervert-Corrupt-and-Put an End, To All Flesh.
For, The Earth is Filled with Violence-Cruelty-and-Injustice, because of them.”
Genesis 6:22,
Noah did Everything, just as God Commanded him. [Hastened and did not Delay, to Obey His Commands]
Then, God Spoke to Noah, again. Genesis 7:1,
Then, The Lord, Spoke to Noah, [and thereby showed him Favor, because God Found him Righteous in the midst of his own, warped and crooked Generation. Thus, to be Found Righteous is to Receive Favor, and thus, to be Spoken to by God]
“Go, Into The Ark, you and your whole Family!
Because I Have, Found you, Righteous [he Found Favor], in This Generation!
Again, in Matthew 24:37-39, Jesus Says:
As It Was, in The Days of Noah,
So Will It Be, At The Coming Of, The Son of Man.
Genesis 6:8,
Noah, Found Favor, in The Eye of The Lord!
Genesis 6:13,
So, God Answered-Spoke-and-Gave-News, to Noah…!
Thus, in Psalm 90:17 and 12-13, one asks to be like Noah, or to be Found Righteous, and thus, Spoken to by God, and then it asks how long it will be until The Lord Returns,
May, The Favor of The Lord Our God, Rest Upon, us! […]
Psalm 75:1 seems to equate “Entering” the Ark with Praise and Thanksgiving to God by Obeying Him, from The Heart, and Giving Him Praise and Thanksgiving,
We Give You Thanks, O God!
We Give Thanks, for Your Name is Near!
Men Proclaim, Your Wonderful Works!
You Say:
“I Choose,
The Proper-and-Appointed-Place-and-Time-and-it-is-I-Who-Take-and-Receive-The-Congregation!
It Is I, Who Judge, Uprightly!”
[So, God Judges when our Obedience is “Complete” it seems, because it also says, “We will be Ready to Punish Every Act of Disobedience, once your Obedience, is Complete!” (2 Cor. 10:6) So, it sounds like someone is “Hastening” The Day of God (2 Peter 3:12) when they think, speak, and act according to Psalm 119:60 which says, “I will Hasten, and Not Delay, to Obey, Your Commands!]
Paul also writes in 1 Thess. 5:4: You are not in Darkness so That Day should Overtake you, like A Thief!" And Revelation 3:3 says, "If you Do Not Wake Up, I will Come Like A Thief, and you WILL NOT KNOW, at What Hour I will Come to-and-upon you!" Revelation 16:15 also says: Blessed is he who is Awake [and equates it to also Remaining Clothed]!" And Proverbs says:
The Commandment is A Lamp, The Teaching A Light... When you AWAKE, They will Speak to you!" As Wisdom says in Proverbs: "Repent, at My Rebuke, and Behold, I will Pour Out My Spirit On you; [that means] I will Make Known My Thoughts-and-Words to you!" And Isaiah says: I will Pour Out My Spirit, on your Offspring!" and Paul says: "We Are, His Offspring!" Therefore, "Hallelujah!" So then, as Hebrews 3:15 warns,
Today, if you Listen-Hear-and-Understand, His Voice,
Do Not Harden-or-Make-Stubborn, your Hearts!
Psalm 85:8,
I Will, Listen-Hear-and-Understand, What God, The Lord, Has to Say!
Proverbs 23:26,
My Son,
Give Me your Heart.
And, Let your Eyes, Delight,
In, My Path-and-Way-and-Course-and-Journey-of-Life!
Psalm 119:35,
Direct me, In The Path-and-Way-and-Course-and-Journey-of-Life,
Of Your Commands,
For, There, I Find, Delight!
Psalm 119:47, 96, and 97,
I Delight, in Your Commandments, because I Love Them!
To All Perfection, I See a Limit!
But Your Commandment, is Infinite-Boundless-and-Eternal!
O, How I Love Your Law, I Meditate on It, All Day Long!
Psalm 143:8 and 10,
Teach me, The Way, I Should Walk!
For, to You, I Lift Up, my Soul! […]
Teach me to Do, Your Will!
For You Are, my God!
Isaiah 48:17,
I Am, The Lord your God,
Who Teaches you, for your Benefit-and-Profit.
Who Directs you, In The Way, you Should, Go.
Psalm 32:8,
I will Instruct you.
And Teach-and-Point-Out-to you,
The Way, you Should Go.
I will Counsel-and-Advise-and-Guide you,
With My Eye, Upon you.
I have a theory of when this date will be but it also is uncertain (regarding what it is referring to, because their are several possibilities, but according to Daniel 12: "from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed-and-Happy is the man who remains-abides-and-waits, and reaches the end of The 1,335 Days!" So then, if Israel rebuilds that Temple and slaughters that red heifer, and resumes sacrifice, then when it stops, and the abomination spoken of through Daniel is setup, then we know how many days their will be: 1,290 and 1,335. That is at least 3.5 year or more warning! (Maybe we can create two theologies are argue over 1,290 and 1,335 days! But isn't it funny how the whole Bible is written "Stereoscopically"? I have more thoughts, but I'm not a "dispensationalist" or a "preterist" or "partial preterist." I'm just "Keeping Watch!" Because "my eyes stay open through The Watches of The Night, as I Meditate on Your Promises!" And, "On my Bed I Remember You! I Think of You, Through The Watches of The Night!"
Hosea 5:8,
Sound The Ram's Horn...! The Battle Cry...!
Lead On, O Benjamin!
[Netanyahu? Has a Benjamite ever led Israel? Other than Saul, and Paul, and The Israel of God? But now, "As is it with the good so it is with the sinner!" And ye'es, Hosea was written after Saul and David.]
Jeremiah 6:1,
Flee for Safety, O People of **Benjamin,** from the midst of Jerusalem!
1 Corinthians 14:8,
Again, if The Trumpet sounds a muffled call, who will Prepare for Battle?
Psalm 30:4,
Sing to the LORD, all you godly ones! Praise his Holy Name!
1 Corinthians 14:8,
Again... [A Loud Voice, Like] The Trumpet...!
Revelation 19:5,
Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you who serve Him, and those who fear Him, small and great alike!
Also, hoping I help garner interest in your page by comments and replies! C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain, pg. 150,
You may have noticed, that the books you really love,
Are Bound Together, by A Secret Thread.
George McDonald, The Princess and The Goblin, chapter 3,
“…Follow, The Thread…!”
G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy, pg. 66,
Love… A Transcendental Tie, Without any earthly Reason…!
The Thread of Thought, Leads to The Throne!
C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves, pg. 67,
…The Same Secret Road…!
G.K. Chesterton, in A Father Brown novel, explains that the detective,
“Caught [the man] with an unseen hook and an invisible Line which is long enough to let him wander to the ends of the world and still bring him back, with A Twitch of THE THREAD!”
As G.K. Chesterton also says, in Homesick at Home,
The Shortest Way Home, is Round The World.
And if you can accept the connection: C.S. Lewis, in Miracles, Chp 6,
For, "What you call a bulge in Devonshire [Heaven] is really a dent in Cornwall [Earth]” and in a sense you can't refute it. Why? Because a bulge in Devonshire always is a dent in Cornwall!" But, you must know the tang of nature before you can know the sweetness of Super-Nature. And, a triangle is meant to represent a road receding into the distance, but a two-dimensional creature can only see it as a triangle, the same shape as a dunces cap. And by no argument can you convince him that this triangle, which is the same shape used to represent a dunces cap in one context, is meant here to represent a road, receding into the distance [round the world and all the way home to heaven and the throne, with a twitch of the thread of thought].
After some research it seems that Baptist's Baptism is accepted for Catholicism, 'I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost' and full immersion in water is fine. So, to that degree you are not sinning.
It is against Catholic Doctrine (a Sin) for Catholics to worship with non-Catholics, but it sounds like you are a Southern Baptist that sometimes joins your Father and his family to sit in on Mass, which is fine as long as you do not receive the Host.
If a Catholic worships with non-Catholics he must Confess this Sin before receiving the Host in the State of Grace.
So, if only sitting-in Catholic Mass, you and your Father's family have not sinned (they, as Catholics should inform you and prevent you if needed with Prudence to protect the Sacrament.)
This is really a thing? I have nothing but love for my Catholic brothers and sisters but I didn't know they consider it sin to worship our God together. Strange.
there is a major nuance happening that is missing from Steves assertion. Namely, high protestant versions of the eucharist. Not common evangelical "worship" because...to be honest...it's not worship.
I mean I could write multiple articles on this topic haha but yes that's correct. 1) doesn't fit the biblical criteria for worship 2) is recent in development and 3) is utterly unfounded in the early church.
Interesting. That seems like a narrow and pretty legalistic view of worship and what God "accepts" as worship, no? I mean, if he was able to think of a dude dancing naked as worship surely what happens at a Protestant church on Sunday is worship.
Hey Steven, I hope you’re willing to take some time to converse. And yeah, I don’t go up and take Communion out of respect, although I did, coincidently, go through Catholic confirmation because my buddy Matt liked to go hangout with friends from school at the class in junior high and I would walk down to the Catholic Church (St. Adelaide’s in Highland, Ca) with him (he also was not Catholic per se) and/but we actually did go through Confirmation! I actually forgot about that or its possible implications until now. We were more sincere than half the others in the class to be sure. Nevertheless, out of respect and sincerity, I haven’t taken communion at a Catholic Church. However, I believe with all my being that my Grandma Charlotte is in Heaven, and she was Catholic, and she was Italian, and friends with many influential Italian priests in the Bay Area from the 1940’s till the late 1990’s when she moved to Seattle, and I will see her again. (She lived to be 99 and drove her car by herself until she was 98 in 2020).
But to be sure, I hereby declare, as an adult, in full moral responsibility, that I do not consider myself to be a part of any “Denomination” per se, not even “Southern Baptist” or “Non-Denominational” or “Catholic” insofar as it represents a damned “denomination” at this point. It is the word “denomination” that I perfectly Hate, not the members or their doctrines per se, but I Hate and Detest and Abhor Division. When I finally started reading the Bible in late 2016, one of the earliest questions I asked myself and then God, with raging anger was: “Why are there all these ‘DENOMINATIONS!?’” So then, I simply consider myself a Christian, a member of THE, Universal Church, and not only semantically, and I hope to help to re-unite all the sincere, among all so-called “denominations” and I don’t say that lightly. As it is written: “Is Christ Divided!?” But “God is Love!” and “Love, The Bond of Perfect Unity!” and “God Is One.” But, “If A Kingdom is Divided Against Itself, It Cannot Stand.” Nevertheless, “There Must be, Divisions-and-Heresies among you, so that those who are Approved may be Made Manifest, Among you!” You yourself believe in "extra ecclesiam nulla salus", yet paragraph 841, which is given to us under the heading: “The Church’s Relationship with the Muslims” from Vatican II says:
The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.
So then, if The Catholic Church is correct enough to include Muslims, then will you not accept the “Protestants” when they come and seek re-unification?
Even Peter himself, the first Pope, notes that even those destroyed during the Flood of Noah were Preached to in Sheol itself, and of course, “When He Ascended on High, He Led Captivity Captive, and Gave Gifts to men!”
So then, is the gig not up? Can’t other Believers (who Believe in Christ and are not Muslim) be saved? Or do you prioritize utter heresy [The Muslim's Heresy over and above a kinder, gentler, even less substantive division/heresy?] Ask your Bishop, then. He will tell you. Arrogance will be offended by this comment. Humility will see nothing but sincerity in the question and seek nothing but reconciliation.
“By the same measure you use, it will be measured to you.” That is why one of the works of God and works of faith is to “Forgive.” But, if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive yours.”
As it is also written: “One man eats everything. Another eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not look down on him who eats only vegetables (as Daniel did in The Book of Daniel and looked healthier than those who ate the King’s portion) and vice versa. For, each gives thanks to God. But, he who doubts is condemned. Even as John 6:35 says, that great chapter of division among “grumblers” and “faultfinders”:
“He who Comes, to Me, will Never Go Hungry! And He who Believes [which is therefore self-evidently connected to ‘Coming’: “He who Comes”] will Never be Thirsty!”
But wait! It also says: “Blessed are those who [DO] Hunger and Thirst, After Righteousness!
[But only] Because, they Will be, Satisfied!”
And, Why is that? Why will they be Satisfied? Those spoken of in John 6 and The Beatitudes?
Who then will Hunger and Thirst? Here is your answer: Amos 8:11,
Behold, The Days are Coming,” Declares, The Lord God, “When I Will Send, A Famine, on The Land!
Not, A Famine of Bread or Thirst for Water, But, A Famine of Listening-Hearing-and-Understanding, The Word of The Lord!”
However, according to Proverbs 10:3,
The Lord Does Not Suffer, The Soul of The Justified-Just-and-thereby-Righteous, To Famine!
Amos 8:11,
Not, A Famine of Bread or Thirst for Water, But, A Famine of Listening-Hearing-and-Understanding, The Word of The Lord!”
Psalm 111:5,
He Provides Food, for those who Fear-and-Revere Him!
He Remembers, His Covenant, Forever!
Psalm 37:18-20,
The Days of The Blameless are Known to The Lord,
And their Inheritance, will Persevere-and-Endure, Forever!
In, Times of Disaster, they will Not Wither!
In Days of Famine, they will Enjoy Plenty!
Psalm 119:54,
Your Statutes-and-Testimonies, are my Food Portion-and-The-Theme, of My Song...!
I was baptized as a Lutheran as a baby, I think in Minnesota, because my mom is Scandinavian. In 6th grade a Baptist Church that was across a field from our apartment complex had a Vacation Bible School going on and I went. I prayed for a dog/golden retriever for a year and my Sunday school teachers sent a card of a different type of Golden Retriever, and when we went to the pound the dog that turned up there, that I saved $40 for from my birthday and Christmas presents, looked exactly like the dog in the card. His name was Tomack and he lived to be 18.
When we moved across town it just so happened that another Baptist Church was within walking distance, so I’ve attended that Church since summer after 6th grade. They had no strict “theological code” that they ever communicated to me. You can’t summarize God’s Word, because It Is Infinite. As it was with St. Thomas Aquinas: “According to historical accounts, Thomas Aquinas stopped speaking and writing near the end of his life, famously stating that ‘all that I have written seems like straw compared to what has now been revealed to me,’ signifying a profound mystical experience that left him speechless and focused on a deeper understanding of God beyond words; essentially, he ‘never spoke again’ in the sense that he ceased to engage in extensive theological writing after this revelation.”
Ye’es, and although I cease from “theological writing” although I never engaged in it in the first place, I do not cease from Speaking God’s Word!
Again, in seventh grade I went to St. Adelaide’s in Highland, Ca for their confirmation classes, although I was baptized Lutheran as a baby and at 18 years old I was baptized again in a Baptist Church, which is valid, perhaps making my confirmation also valid!
In D.C. me and a buddy went to Catholic Church and Capital Hill Baptist every other week (again, I didn’t receive Communion out of respect or perhaps a miscalculation).
Now, I have a question for you. If I understand, almost without limit, things in The Scriptures/Bible that no one has apparently understood in approximately 2,000 years, why is that? And also, I think you ought to hear it, and I would greatly appreciate if you shared your opinion on these matters.
I’ll leave an example below. In all my reading, I don’t see anything that should divide the Church/es. I do see, however, that there may have been a need, in the past and present, to carefully craft doctrines in human words, because many with bad intentions have crept in among us, but in light of verses that Speak Directly, it would be cool to have your opinion about whether or not these verses are indeed Speaking, or if we need such “theologies” in light of a Revelation that is self-evident and complete. Should we not shut our own mouths? For, “If anyone speaks, he should do it as one Speaking, The Very Words of God.” Example:
1 Corinthians 2:7,
We Speak, God's Secret Wisdom, A Wisdom, that Has been Hidden, And, That God Destined-and-Fore-Ordained, For, Our Glory-and-Honor, Before Time-or-The-World, Began.
Proverbs 8:22-23,
The Lord, Possessed Me [Wisdom],
In, The Beginning of His Path-and-Way-and-Journey-and-Course-of-Life!
Before-and-East-of, His Deeds of Old!
I, [Wisdom] was Anointed-Poured-Out-and-Established, From Eternity!
As-Head-Highest-Summit-and-Chief,
Before, Time-or-The-World Began!
As it says in Genesis 1:1,
In, The Beginning, God Created, The Heavens...
As it says in Proverbs 8:27,
When He, Prepared-Established-and-Made-Firm, The Heavens, I [Wisdom] was There!
Again, Genesis 1:1 says,
In, The Beginning, God Created, The Heavens, And, The Earth.
Again, Wisdom says in Proverbs 8:27,
When He, Marked-Out-Engraved-and-Cut,
The Foundations, Of, The Earth,
I, was There!
Genesis 1:1-2 continues,
Now, The Earth, was Formless and Void, Darkness Was, Over, The Face of The Deep!
Again, Wisdom was “There.”
Proverbs 8:24 and 27-29,
When there were, No Deeps, I [Wisdom] was Brought Forth!
When He, Marked-Out-Engraved-and-Cut, The-Vaulted-Circle-of-The-Horizon, Over, The Face of The Deep,
Then, I, Was Beside Him, as a Master-Craftsman-and-Supreme-Workman…!
[Silence, I will consider, is consent that these verse are correctly curated, and thereby curated by The Holy Spirit, and that I have Freedom, to partake in unity and communion with any sincere Believers anywhere, among all The Church, even if I refrain from "Disputable Matters" for, "The Lord's Servants Must Not Quarrel Over Disputable Matters!"
I think that if you’re doubting PSA because the effects of sin are still around, I think you’ve misunderstood something somewhere. Christ satisfying the legal demands of our sin doesn’t undo the effects of our sin any more than sentencing a murderer brings the deceased back to life.
I’m saying I think your critique of Penal Substitutionary Atonement has a faulty foundation which is resulting in you making categorical errors to prove your argument.
I just saw there’s a typo in my comment… stupid autotext and fat fingers 😆
Justin Martyr didn't have PSA in mind, this is clear from the whole of his writings. Keep in mind, the WHOLE of PSA isn't, let's say, heretical or wrong. I think the view can be melded and often is in the west, but it is a fact that it was not heard of until Anslem.
For example btw: “He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin.” (Dialogue with Trypho, 100)
As someone who does hold to PSA, I don’t think one has to pick and choose atonement theories as all have truth to them since what Christ accomplished was more complex than a one dimensional act.
It’s not any more “Nestorian” to say that Jesus took the wrath of God against sin for us than to say that God died at all. I think you’re leaning too much into the gnostic view that Jesus was not physical at all but was only divine or spiritual. Jesus died like a human, which is a real and important consequence of sin.
The fact that you argue that Reformed views tend to say that the Eucharist only represents the blood and the body is a caricature of Protestant beliefs. All historic protestant traditions affirm real presence, even historic Baptists.
I'm not finding this addressed in your comments. You began by saying: "Christ’s death and resurrection restore the broken relationship between God and humanity, focusing on theosis (union with God)." I agree that that is the result, but you don't propose a mechanism. Why should Christ's death and resurrection be necessary to restore the rift between God and man? Why not just a judicial edict by God, who is the ultimate arbiter of justice, that unconditional reconciliation will be offered by faith in Christ absent the crucifixion and resurrection? It seems to me that something of cosmic importance has happened through the death of the innocent Christ, the shedding of his blood, and his subsequent victory over death.
Elsewhere you remark on the injustice of an innocent punished to exonerate the guilty, yet that seems to me to be the very mechanism that God established with Israel's sacrificial system of atonement. So it suggests to me that there is something else going on here. The cross was a vehicle for restoration and reconciliation with God, absolutely, but I would say that the death of Jesus on the cross was in some way a necessary atonement for sin, or else, it seems to me, that the cross drama is entirely arbitrary and the humanity could have been reconciled by heavenly decree. I'd be interested in your thoughts, and apologies if I've missed your dealing with this question elsewhere.
I appreciate this argument you have laid out. I have always touted myself as a "general fan of PSA" but I have learned that PSA means different things to different people and that my view of PSA was perhaps too simple to reflect the term.
I am really struggling to articulate my question as I type, delete, type, and delete. I always viewed PSA as "Christ choosing to die to take on my sin and die for it so that I could be forgiven, because he loves me". Would you argue against this view, or would you say something like "that view is fine, but PSA takes it much much further".
I think part of my confusion is I know some think PSA has on over-emphasis on wrath. Some don't see Christ willingness to go the cross. Some then see the financial accounting side of PSA as the issue. That Christ died to "wipe my sin debt away".
Thank you for your time, I look forward to your response!
Your description is a really mere view that could technically fit into any view of salvation. PSA describes each component under the umbrella that Jesus took on God's wrath, which is why it is self-defeating for many reasons but mainly that...God's wrath still exists.
That makes sense. I appreciate your response as well as your initial post. It helped me see why people have problems with PSA in the first place. I feel like I have a more wholistic view than I had before reading it!
I love how Jesus told us to forgive before there was ever a sacrifice for our forgiveness. According to PSA, Jesus commanded us to do something that the Father himself was incapable of doing. And that's just the craziest notion in the world.
Great article and a great discussion too. Ive been struggling with how to articulate balance on these two views but this initial post and ensuing discussion have provided some enlightenment.
Thank you! Very well articulated. John 3.16 doesn't say God was so infuriated at the world He killed His son...
I talked to a Catholic buddy over the phone about this issue/debate in more detail the other day. I understand the general topic of this debate a little bit better now. Your article/comments helped me understand the crux of this debate a little better as well. I'm going to look deeper into it. My motivation is to reconcile the two positions somehow if that is possible. I may comment again with some test cases for you to comment on. Thanks for the replies! I still leave the topic as an undecided because in many places The Bible uses verbiage that merely appears to contradict, then The Bible reconciles the subject in third-term verses located elsewhere. I want to examine if that may be the case here. There are many verses in The Bible about Wrath and Reconciliation and I leave some of them open to being about Christ, as well as New Testament verses. My position is left unchanged: undecided and open to further discussion and investigation.
Great overview and critique of PSA! This theory of the cross irks me because it is soooo easy to slip in when referencing the cross to emotionally manipulate someone. Phrases like “the Godhead is separated” or “the sins of the world were on Jesus” etc. To my understanding, the more traditional view is that Jesus offers himself as the Lamb of God and his sacrifice is ACCEPTED by the Father 🙌🙌🙌 Jesus suffered crucifixion which is horrendous but I don’t think he suffered extra spiritual suffering which PSA seems to emphasize
I have no hard position on this topic at the present time. I am a Christian and study The Bible but have not studied "theologians" per se much, because they tend to write in their own words about verses they have cherry picked that reinforce what they already think. I consider myself "cross-denominational" and believe anyone who is "sincere" in their belief-trust-faith-and-steadfast-certainty in Christ is saved, so I consider myself unified with all sincere believers. Admittedly, the word "sincere" here carries a lot more meaning than the word might initially suggest, and I don't have time to go into that now. I attend Catholic service with my dad's side of the family and have attended a Southern Baptist church regularly since 6th grade.
Back to the topic of theologians and limited interpretations: there are many verse in The Bible that merely appear to "contradict." Example:
A. "Love... Believes All Things." B. "Do Not Believe All The Spirits but Test The Spirits." So if one theologian took verse A. and another took verse B. and then they each searched for other verses that reinforced their position they might create two "Sects" or "A Division" in The Church. In doing so both would, as The Proverb states, have been: "Hasty, and Missed The Way" because in Acts Paul appears to qualify the statement: "Love... Believes All Things" by also saying that he "Believes All Things, *WRITTEN IN THE LAW AND IN THE PROPHETS." There may be more to this as well but I'll leave that as an example of where two verses merely "appear" to contradict in isolation but with a more holistic search the two verses become reconciled again. It may be the same with "Faith and Works" or your "Work of Faith, Labor of Love, Prompted by The Hope Stored Up in you." Or in other words, "It is God Who Works In you, To Will-Desire and Act, According to His Good Desire-and-Will." So there is no "work of the letter of the law" to be done, but God Works in His people to Will and Act: to be kind, generous, lead, encourage, be at peace, forgive, pay attention to learn from Him, etc. etc.
Regarding Penal Substitution, Christus Victor, and Atonement, I just have some thoughts or questions regarding the rejection of penal substitution, although I don't fully understand what the theologians mean by it because I haven't studied them:
You write that: "Penal substitution presupposes that God’s justice demands punishment. Yet, if justice is satisfied through Christ, ongoing suffering and death appear inconsistent with “wrath extinguished. Orthodox theology challenges this by suggesting that God’s justice is restorative, not retributive. The cross reconciles humanity to God, rather than simply satisfying divine wrath."
Here are some verse to consider or work into the equation, that may indicate the Cross does Both, and there are a lot more verses than this of course. It is difficult to write a summary of all the verses out in my own words because there is a lot to it. But it seems that to strictly limit the work of The Cross with any theological summaries runs the risk of leaving a lot out. I do think the Christus Victor position is also correct in terms of His Victory by The Cross and Resurrection.
Regarding "retributive justice" and substitutionary atonement: Isaiah 53, But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."
2 Corinthians 5:21: God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
Hebrews 9:28
so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
Galatians 3:13 states, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.
The word "penal" above seems to combine "punishment" and "wrath" when they are separate. Christ seems to have absorbed the wrath but we are punished/suffer as discipline. 1 Thess. 5:9: God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jeremiah 10:24: Discipline [which means Afflict] me, LORD, but only in due measure— not in your Wrath, or you will reduce me to nothing.
Hebrews 12:7: Endure suffering-Affliction-and-hardship as Discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
1 Peter 3:14,
if you should suffer-or-be-Afflicted for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear what they fear; do not be shaken.”
1 Cor. 11:31-32: Yet when we are Judged by the Lord, we are being Disciplined [Afflicted] so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
Proverbs 27:6: "Wounds-and-Bruises from a Friend are Faithful-and-Can-Be-Trusted.
Again: 1 Cor. 11:31-32: Yet when we are *Judged* by the Lord, we are being Disciplined [Afflicted]
1 Peter 4:17-18: For it is time for *Judgment* [Discipline/Affliction/Suffering but not Wrath] to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God? / And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
Proverbs 11:31: "If the righteous receive their due [retributive or in due measure to a degree] on earth, how much more the wicked and the sinner.
So although we have not been Appointed to Wrath, we still Suffer and are Afflicted and Die, because "The Last Enemy to be Defeated is Death." For He must Reign until He has put everything under His Feet. (Death is Last).
Psalm 119:71: It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees.
Psalm 119:67: Before I was Afflicted I went Astray, but now I Obey Your Commands.
And regarding Death still being in the world: "The Last Enemy to be Defeated is Death." But there are two kinds of death and to combine them is a mistake.
But, Luke 20:38 New International Version (NIV)
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for All are Alive to Him.
Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
Romans 14:9
For this reason Christ died and returned to life, that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. / And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
I agree with your point about the importance of reconciling Scripture holistically rather than isolating verses to support predetermined conclusions. As you mentioned, verses like “Love… believes all things” (1 Corinthians 13:7) and “Do not believe every spirit” (1 John 4:1) can seem contradictory when isolated, yet harmonize within the broader context of Scripture. Similarly, theological interpretations like penal substitution must consider not just isolated proof texts but the overarching biblical narrative of creation, fall, redemption, and restoration.
You raise an important point when you suggest that God’s justice might encompass both retributive and restorative dimensions. However, I would challenge the assumption that these must coexist in a symmetrical way. In many theological traditions, including Catholic and Orthodox views, God’s justice is primarily understood as restorative. For example, the justice described in Isaiah 53 (“by His wounds, we are healed”) focuses on healing and restoration rather than punishment in a purely retributive sense.
The penal substitution model presupposes that justice necessitates punishment, with Christ taking our place. Yet, if justice were solely about retribution, the idea of God forgiving sin (Psalm 103:10) would seem inconsistent. Instead, God’s justice appears more relational and covenantal, aiming to restore humanity and creation to right relationship with Him (2 Corinthians 5:18-19).
You propose a distinction between Christ absorbing wrath and believers enduring discipline. While this is an interesting framework, it risks separating God’s actions in a way Scripture does not always support. For instance, Hebrews 12:6-7 emphasizes discipline as an act of fatherly love, not wrath. If Christ has fully reconciled us to God (Romans 5:1), then any remaining suffering we endure is not punitive but transformative, drawing us deeper into conformity with Christ (Romans 8:29).
Moreover, the idea of “wrath” in Scripture is often misunderstood. In Catholic and Orthodox theology, God’s wrath is not an emotional outburst but a metaphor for His opposition to sin and its destructive effects. Christ’s work on the cross is not about “absorbing” wrath as much as defeating sin, death, and the devil (Christus Victor) while opening the path for humanity to be united with God.
Isaiah 53 is a central text in discussions of atonement, and your citation of “the punishment that brought us peace was on Him” is important. However, this verse need not be read solely through the lens of penal substitution. Many Church Fathers interpreted this passage as emphasizing Christ’s self-giving love and the redemptive power of His suffering. His “punishment” is not about satisfying divine wrath but about bearing the consequences of sin to heal and restore humanity.
Additionally, 2 Corinthians 5:21 (“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us”) does not necessarily imply substitutionary punishment. Instead, it reflects Christ entering fully into the human condition, taking on the burden of sin to transform and sanctify it.
You rightly point out that suffering remains a reality for believers, as seen in passages like Hebrews 12:7 and 1 Peter 4:17. However, this suffering is not indicative of God’s wrath but part of the sanctification process. In Catholic theology, this aligns with the concept of redemptive suffering, where believers participate in Christ’s suffering for the sake of their own sanctification and the good of the Church (Colossians 1:24).
You make an excellent observation about the distinction between physical and spiritual death. Christ’s victory over death does not eliminate physical death immediately, as 1 Corinthians 15:26 notes that the “last enemy” to be defeated is death. However, spiritual death—separation from God—has been definitively overcome through Christ’s resurrection. In this sense, believers who are united with Christ “never die” (John 11:26) because they remain in communion with the living God.
Your reflections underscore the complexity of atonement theology and the need to approach it with humility and openness. While I share your appreciation for the Christus Victor model, I find the penal substitution framework inadequate because it risks reducing God’s justice to a transactional concept of retribution. Instead, the cross is best understood as the culmination of God’s restorative work—a victory over sin, death, and the devil, as well as the reconciliation of humanity to Himself. Not to mention it was held by zero church father.
Thank you again for your thoughtful comment!
Great reply! I'm going to reply with a few more questions for the sake of learning, but may include some challenges. I think C.S. Lewis was an advocate of Christus Victor and he is one of my favorite non-Biblical authors so I respect the position, but can't seem to see why it has to be "one or the other," as well as why Christ crucified can't also be a thousand other things/symbols/effects/etc. -as Christ was lifted up and drew all men to Himself, and as He is the Capstone and all things hold together in Him, as it was also a "Baptism." As it says in Luke 1250: "I have a Baptism to be Baptized with, and how Distressed I Am, until it is Completed."
1. You write that, "However, I would challenge the assumption that these must coexist in a symmetrical way." I agree in that I do not know about the symmetry of the two things per se, but I'm taking the position that it could be possible for both to be true, and I'm seeking to understand why Christ could not have both suffered the wrath for us and been given victory over sin and death resulting in reconciliation. In other words I'm leaving a question mark on the question of "why can't they both be true" until I myself understand it better.
1 Peter 3:18 seems to include both concepts, of Penal Substitution AND Christus Victor: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, ***the righteous for the unrighteous [Penal Substitution],*** <<<to bring you to God [Christus Victor].>>> He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit."
Thus, it appears it may have been Penal Substitution in the flesh and Christus Victor in The Spirit.
Regarding wrath being a problem of The Trinity, let me know why this is the case. Here are some verses that "might relate" to that subject, followed by some very abstract verses that put the following combination in more context.
Proverbs 20:5,
The Purposes of a man's Heart, are Deep Waters.
Psalm 42:7,
Deep Calls To Deep!
Proverbs 3:20,
By His Knowledge, The Deeps were Divided...!
Mark 15:34,
And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice:
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?—which means, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?”
Proverbs 3:20,
By His Knowledge, The Deeps were Divided...!
Psalm 22:1,
O My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?
Why are you so far from saving Me, so far from The Words of My groaning?
The moral of the crying out to God no matter what may be that of Perseverance or Never Give Up.
Psalm 38:8,
I Groan, because of the Anguish of My heart!
At the same time, according to Hebrews 12:2,
For the joy set before Him he endured the cross, scorning its shame...
Psalm 69:17,
Do Not Hide Your Face, From Your Servant!
Answer Me Quickly, for I Am in Trouble!
38:13-14,
I Am like a Mute Man.
I Am like a Man who Does Not Hear!
Psalm 22:16,
They Have Pierced My Hands…!
Isaiah 49:16,
I Have, Engraved you, on The Palms of My Hands…
Psalm 22:16,
They Have Pierced… and My Feet!
Job 13:27,
You Engrave the Soles of my Feet!
Psalm 119:61 continues,
…the wicked bind Me with ropes…
Job 16:8,
You have bound Me—and it has become a Witness.
Job 16:7,
My eyes grow dim with grief.
…My whole frame is but a shadow.
Psalm 109:22,
My body is thin and gaunt….
Job 16:8,
My gauntness rises up, and testifies against Me.
Isaiah 52:13,
…He will be raised, and lifted up…
John 3:14,
…as Moses, Lifted Up, The Serpent in The Desrt-Wilderness, so must the Son of Man be Lifted Up.
Psalm 22:14,
All My bones are out of joint!
Psalm 22:17,
I can count all My bones!
And people stare and gloat over Me.
Psalm 22:17-19,
They divide My garments among them, and cast lots for My clothing.
But you Lord, be not far off; O My Strength, come quickly to help Me!
Psalm 28:3,
Do not drag Me away with the wicked…
Psalm 26:8,
I love the place where you live, O Lord!
The place where Your glory dwells!
Psalm 26:1,
Vindicate Me, Lord, for I have led a blameless life;
I have trusted in the Lord, without wavering!
Psalm 22:9-10,
You brought Me out of the womb!
From birth I was cast upon You.
From My mother’s womb, You have been My God!
You made Me trust in You, even at My mother’s breast!
Psalm 71:6,
From birth I have relied on You;
You brought Me forth, from My mother’s womb.
I will ever praise you!
Psalm 22:11-13,
Do not be far from Me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help!
Many bulls surround Me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle Me.
Roaring lions tearing their prey, they open their mouths wide against Me.
Psalm 22:16,
Dogs have surrounded Me; a band of evil men has encircled Me.
Rescue Me from the mouth of the lions; save Me from the horns of the wild oxen…
Job 23:16-17,
God has made My heart faint.
The Almighty has terrified Me.
Yet I Am not silenced, by the darkness that covers My face.
Psalm 26:2-3 and Psalm 139:23,
Test Me, Lord, and try Me, examine My heart and My mind;
For Your love is ever before Me, and I walk continually in Your Truth…
My flesh and My heart may fail, but God is the strength of My heart, and My portion forever!
Job 19:26,
After My skin has been destroyed, yet in My flesh, I will see God.
I Myself will see Him, with My own eyes—I, and not another!
How My heart yearns within Me!
Psalm 71:3,
Be My Rock and refuge, to which I can always go!
Psalm 22:3,
You are Enthroned, as The Holy One!
You are, The Praise of Israel, but I Am a Worm and Not a Man, Scorned by men and Despised, by The People.
Job 25:6,
…a man, who is but a maggot—a Son of Man, who is only a worm!
Psalm 43:5 and Psalm 42:5-6 say the same, twice,
Why are you so downcast, O My soul?
Why so disturbed within Me?
Put your hope in God, for I will praise Him yet, My Savior and My God!
Psalm 71:20-21,
Though you have made Me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore My Life again.
From the depths of the earth, you will again bring Me up.
You will increase My honor and comfort Me once again.
Psalm 42:7,
Deep calls to Deep!
Psalm 103:17,
…from Everlasting to Everlasting, the Lord’s Love is with those who fear Him!
Psalm 90:2,
…from Everlasting to Everlasting, You are God!
Palm 89:52,
Praise be to the Lord, forever!
Amen, and Amen.
Revelation 3:2,
These are the Words of the Amen,
The Faithful and True Witness,
The Beginning of, The Creation of God.
Psalm 28:1,
To You I call, O Lord, My Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to Me!
If you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down into the pit!
Psalm 22:7-8,
All who see Me mock Me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
He trusts in the Lord; let the Lord save Him. Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him.
Psalm 109:1-3 continues,
I Am an object of scorn to My accusers; when they see Me they shake their heads.
Psalm 38:11,
Even My loved ones and friends stand aloof, in full sight of My Affliction…!
John 19:25-27,
Near the cross, stood Jesus mother [Mary, which means “Strong Waters”], his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw His mother there, and the Disciple whom He loved, standing nearby, He said to His mother:
Dear woman, here is your son.
And to the Disciple:
Here is your mother.
From that time on, this Disciple took her into his home.
Psalm 38:11,
My own Kinsman, Stand in The Distance.
Luke 23:49,
All those who Knew Him, including The Women who Had Followed Him from Galilee,
Stood at a Distance, Watching, These Things.
Psalm 41:9,
And, My Close Friend, whom I Trusted, he who Shared My Bread,
Has Lifted Up his Heel, Against Me!
Psalm 69:14,
Deliver Me from those who Hate Me [in the Intentions of their Hearts], from Deep Waters!
Isaiah 53:9-10 continues,
He died with the wicked…
Here is more, because Substack limits comments: Psalm 11:3 describes the Deep Waters as,
…the Womb of the Dawn…
According to Proverbs 3:20,
…The Clouds Let Drop their Dew.
Psalm 69:1-2,
Save Me, O God!
The Waters Have Come Up, to My Neck [or, “into My soul” ].
I Am Sinking, in The Miry Depths, and there is No Foothold!
I Have Come, into Deep Waters.
The Floods, Engulf Me!
Psalm 38:4,
…Sins *Pass Over* My Head…!
…They weigh too much for Me!
Psalm 38:2,
…Your Blows-of-Your-Hand are Pressing-Down-and-Crushing Me!
Isaiah 53:11,
It was, The Will of The Lord to Crush Him, and to Cause Him to Suffer.
Isaiah 49:26 clarifies,
…I, the Lord, I Am your Savior, your Redeemer, The Mighty One of Jacob…!
Psalm 46:3,
…Waters Roar and Foam, and The Mountains Quake as they Surge!
Isaiah 53:11,
It was the will of the Lord to crush Him, and to cause Him to suffer.
Job 16:14,
Again and Again, He Bursts upon Me!
He Rushes At Me, like A Warrior!
Job 16:9,
God Assails Me, and Tears Me in His Anger, and Gnashes His Teeth, At Me!
My Opponent Fastens on Me, His Piercing Eyes!
Psalm 38:1,
Do Not Rebuke Me, in Your Angry-Wrath!
Psalm 69:15,
Do Not Let, The Flood Waters Engulf Me, or the Depths Swallow Me Up!
Luke 12:50,
I Have a Baptism to Undergo, and How Distressed I Am, Until It, is Completed.
2 Samuel 22:5,
The Waves Overwhelm Me!
A Flood of Destruction, Sweeps Over Me!
Psalm 69:14,
Deliver Me from those who Hate Me [in the Intentions of their Hearts], from Deep Waters!
Proverbs 20:5,
The Purposes-Plan-and-Intentions of a man’s Heart, are Deep Waters.
Proverbs 27:19,
As in Water, Face [Reflects] Face, so the Heart of a man [Reflects] the man.
Proverbs 20:5,
The Purposes-Plan-and-Intentions of a man’s Heart, are Deep Waters [hard to satisfy?].
Job 38:16,
Have you… Walked in The Recesses of The Deep?
Psalm 42:7,
Deep Calls, To Deep!
Proverbs 3:20,
… By His Knowledge, The Deeps, were Divided…
Psalm 42:7,
In, The Roar of Your Waterfalls; All of Your Waves and Breakers, Have Swept Over Me!
Psalm 18:4-5 and 2 Samuel 22:6,
The Cords of Death Entangle Me!
The Torrents of Destruction Overwhelm Me!
The Cords of Sheol Coil Around Me!
The Snares of Death Confront Me!
Psalm 69:3,
I Am, Worn Out, and Calling for Help!
Psalm 69:14,
Rescue Me from The Mire!
Do Not Let Me Sink!
Psalm 28:3,
Do Not Drag Me Away with The Wicked…!
Psalm 69:15,
Do Not Let The Pit Close its Mouth Over Me!
Psalm 71:3,
Give The Command to Save Me!
Psalm 69:16, [like Daniel 9:18]
Answer Me O Lord, Out of The Goodness of Your Love!
In Your Great Mercy, Turn To Me!
Psalm 69:17,
Do Not Hide Your Face, From Your Servant!
Answer Me Quickly, for I Am in Trouble!
38:13-14,
I Am like a Mute Man.
I Am like a Man who Does Not Hear!
Proverbs 3:20,
…the Deeps were Divided…
Psalm 41:10-11,
…O Lord, Have Mercy on Me.
Raise Me Up…
I Know, that You are Pleased, with Me…
Psalm 69:3,
My Eyes Fail, Looking for My God.
Psalm 69:4,
Those who Hate Me, Without Reason, Outnumber The Hairs on My Head…
Psalm 69:29,
I Am in Pain and Distress…
Psalm 69:4,
I Am Forced to Restore, what I Did Not Steal.
Psalm 69:3,
My Throat, is Parched.
Psalm 22:15,
My Tongue Sticks, to The Roof of my Mouth.
Psalm 22:15,
My Strength is Dried Up, like Potsherd.
Psalm 38:7,
My Side is Filled, with Burning,
My Back, with Searing Pain, and there is No Health in My Flesh.
Psalm 38:5,
My Wounds Stink, and Fester.
Psalm 109:23,
I Am Fading Away, like an Evening Shadow…
Psalm 38:8,
I Groan, because of, The Anguish of My Heart.
Psalm 109:22,
My Heart is Wounded within Me.
Psalm 109:22,
My Heart is Wounded within Me.
Psalm 38:10,
My Heart is Pounding, Against My Chest!
Psalm 55:4,
My Heart is Beating Violently, it Throbs Wildly within Me!
Psalm 22:14,
My Heart, has Turned to Wax!
It Has Melted Away, Within Me!
Psalm 69:20,
Scorn, has Broken My Heart.
Psalm 38:8,
I Am, Going Numb!
I Am, Greatly Bruised, and Deathly Cold!
Psalm 38:10,
Even, The Light, is Gone from My Eyes…
Psalm 38:17,
I Am, Ready to Fall…
Proverbs 24:17,
Do Not Gloat, when your Enemy Falls, when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice, or the Lord will see, and disapprove, and turn His wrath away from him [your enemy].
Proverbs 24:29,
Do not say, “I’ll do to him as he has done to me; I’ll pay that man back for what he did.
Matthew 7:1-2,
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Proverbs 17:5,
He who rejoices at calamity will not go unpunished…
1 Kings 3:11,
[you have not] …Asked For, The Death of your Enemies, but, For Discernment in Administering Justice…
Zechariah 7:9,
This, is What The Lord Almighty Says:
Administer True Justice: Show Mercy and Compassion to one another!
2 Chronicles 1:11,
…you Have Not Asked For… The Death of your Enemies…
Proverbs 17:9,
He who Covers Over an Offense Promotes Love, but whoever Repeats The Matter Separates Close Friends.
Matthew 23:34,
And Jesus said, “Father, Forgive Them, for they Know Not, What they Do.”
Job 31:29,
Have I Rejoiced, at The Destruction of those who Hated Me?
I Have Not Allowed My Mouth to Sin, by Invoking a Curse Against My Enemy’s Life…
Psalm 22:31,
He Has Done It!
John 19:30,
When He Had Received, The Drink, Jesus Said,
“It Is Finished!”
With That, He He Bowed His Head, and Gave Up His Spirit.
Matthew 27:50,
And, when Jesus had Cried Out Again, in A Loud Voice,
He Gave Up His Spirit.
Psalm 31:5,
Into Your Hands, I Commit My Spirit!
Luke 23:46,
Jesus called out with a loud voice:
Father, Into Your Hands, I Commit My Spirit!
Luke 23:46,
When He had Said This,
He Breathed, His Last.
Mark 15:37,
With a Loud Cry, Jesus Breathed, His Last.
Isaiah 42:14,
…like, A Woman In Childbirth, I Cry Out, I Gasp, and Pant.
Jeremiah 4:31 continues, from the perspective of the anti-type,
I hear a cry, as of a woman in labor, a groan, as of one bearing her First Child—the cry of Daughter Zion, gasping for breath, stretching out her hands, and saying:
Alas! I am fainting. My life is given over to murderers.
Job 11:20 continues, noting that the same thing Daughter Zion did to Christ, her First Child, would soon be done to her by way of the Roman Siege of Jerusalem,
But the eyes of the wicked will fail [as they blindfolded Christ], and escape will elude them.
Their hope will become a dying gasp.
John 19:31-34,
Now it was the Day of Preparation, and the next day was to be *a special Sabbath.*
Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
But, when they Came to Jesus, and Found that He was Already Dead, they Did Not Break His Legs.
Instead, one of the Soldiers Pierced Jesus’ Side with A Spear,
Bringing a Sudden Flow, of Blood and Water.
Job 16:13 says the same, but from the perspective of the anti-type,
…Without Pity, He Pierces My Kidneys, and Spills My Gall [bitterness and poison] on The Ground.
Job 24-25 continues from the perspective of the anti-type,
Though he Flees from an Iron Tipped Weapon,
A Bronze Tipped Arrow Pierces him.
He Pulls It, Out of his Back, The Gleaming Point, Out of his Liver.
Terrors will Come Over him; Total Darkness Lies in Wait for his Treasures.
Proverbs 7:23,
…an Arrow Pierces his Liver…
Psalm 79:3 foretells,
They Have, Poured Out Blood, like Water…
Deuteronomy 15:23,
But, you Must Not Eat The Blood;
Pour It Out on The Ground like Water. [23]
1 John 5:6,
This is the One Who Came by Water and Blood—Jesus Christ.
He Did Not Come by Water Only, but by Water and Blood.
Psalm 22:14,
I Am Poured Out, like Water…
Psalm 22:15,
I Am Laid in The Dust of Death.
Psalm 22:15,
I Am Laid in The Dust of Death.
Isaiah 53 continues,
Yet, No One in His Generation, Thought Anymore About His Destiny,
For, He was Cut Off, from The Land of The Living,
Struck, for The Sins, of My People.
Job 24:20, from the perspective of the anti-type, the wicked, whom Jesus was treated like,
…evil men are no longer remembered, but are broken, like a tree.
Isaiah 53:9-10 continues,
He died with the wicked and was assigned the grave of a rich man in His death, although He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth.
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush Him, to cause Him to suffer [to take the fall for us].
Job 21:32 continues, from the perspective of the anti-type,
He is carried to the grave, and watch is kept over his tomb.
Job 6:12,
Am I, The Sea, or The Monster of The Deep, that you Put Me, Under Guard?
Isaiah 53:4-6 continues,
Although He took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, we considered Him stricken by God, smitten by Him, and afflicted.
But He was pierced for our transgressions.
He was bruised and crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brings us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid upon Him the consequences that should have befallen all of us.
Isaiah 53:2-3,
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to Him, nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him.
He was hated and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces, He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Numbers 9:11-12,
They, are to Eat The Lamb, Together with The Unleavened Bread and Bitter Herbs.
They, Must Not Leave Any of It, Till Morning, or Break Any of Its Bones.
When They, Celebrate Passover, they Must Follow, All The Regulations.
John 19:32-34,
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
But, when they Came to Jesus, and Found that He was Already Dead,
They Did Not Break His Legs.
Psalm 34:19-20,
The Righteous Man, may Have Many Troubles,
But, The Lord Delivers Him, from Them All.
He Protects All His Bones, Not One of Them, will Be Broken!
John 19:31,
Now, it was, The Day of Preparation, and,
The Next Day, was to be, A Special Sabbath.
Numbers 9:4-5, states that the Passover is usually to be celebrated on the Fourteenth Day of the First Month,
So, Moses Told, The Israelites, to Celebrate The Passover, and they did so, in the Desert-Wilderness of Sinai,
At Twilight, on The Fourteenth Day of the First Month.
Numbers 9:9-12, gives a loophole, for another day, however,
Then, The Lord Said to Moses,
“Tell, The Israelites: ‘When any of you or your Descendants are Unclean because of a Dead Body or are Away on A Journey, they May Still Celebrate, The Lord’s Passover.
They are to Celebrate It On,
The Fourteenth Day of The Second Month, At Twilight.
They are to Eat, The Lamb, Together with Unleavened Bread and Bitter Herbs.
They Must Not Leave Any of It, Till Morning or Break Any of Its Bones.
When they Celebrate Passover, they Must Follow All The Regulations.
John 19:31,
Now, it was, The Day of Preparation, and,
The Next Day, was to be, A Special Sabbath.
Three Days in the Heart of the Earth
Matthew 12:40,
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of Great Fish [or sea monster], so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Psalm 88:5-6,
I Am set apart with the dead, like the slain, who lie in the grave, whom You remember no more, who are cut off from Your care.
You have put Me in the lowest pit, in the darkest depths.
Your wrath lies heavily upon Me.
Jonah 2:3,
You hurled me into the heart of the seas.
Psalm 88:7-18
You have overwhelmed Me with all your waves.
You have taken from Me My closest friends, and have made Me repulsive to them.
I Am confined, and cannot escape.
My eyes are dim with grief.
I call to you, O Lord, every day; I spread out My hands to You.
Do you show your wonders to the dead?
Do those who are dead, rise up and praise You?
Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction [Abaddon]?
Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the Land of Oblivion?
But I cry to you for help, O Lord!
In the morning My prayer comes before You.
Why, O Lord, do you reject Me, and hide You face from Me?
From My youth I have been afflicted, and close to death.
I have suffered Your terrors, and I Am in despair.
Your wrath has swept over Me.
Your terrors have destroyed Me.
All day long, they surround Me, like a flood, they have completely engulfed Me.
You have taken My companions, and loved ones, from Me.
The darkness is My closest friend.
Psalm 144:5-11,
Part Your Heavens, O Lord, and come down!
Touch the mountains, so that they smoke!
Send forth lightning and scatter the enemies!
Shoot Your arrows and route them!
Reach down Your Hand from On High!
Deliver Me and rescue Me from the mighty waters, from the hands of foreigners, whose mouths are full of lies, whose right hands are deceitful!
I will sing a New Song to You, O God!
On the Ten Stringed Lyre, I will make music to You, to the One who gives victory to Kings, who delivers His servant, David, from the deadly sword!
Psalm 89:48-52 continues,
What man can live, and not see death, or save Himself from Sheol [the grave]?
O Lord, where is Your former great love, which in Your Faithfulness, You promised to David?
Remember, O Lord, how your Servant has been mocked, how I bear the taunts of all the nations, the taunts with which Your enemies have mocked, O Lord, which they have mocked every step of Your Anointed One.
Praise be to the Lord, forever and ever!
Amen and Amen.
The Resurrection
Isaiah 53:11 continues,
Yet after the suffering of His soul, He will again see the Light of Life, and be fulfilled; and by His knowledge My Righteous Servant will justify many, because He will bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:10,
And after the Lord gives His soul as a guilt offering, He will see His Holy Seed [Holy Offspring, those who have His Word?], and prolong His days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in His Hand.
Psalm 119:62,
At midnight I rise, [“chatsoth”] to give You thanks for Your Righteous Laws!
I Am a friend to all who fear You, to all who follow Your Precepts!
Thus, Psalm 119:62 is the anti-type of Exodus 11:4-5 and Job 34:20 and 25,
…About midnight [“chatsoth”] I will go throughout Egypt [the world, which is a slave to sin]. Every firstborn in Egypt [like the Great City?] will die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sits on the Throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is [grinding] at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. [Exodus 11:4-5]
They die in an instant, in the middle of the night [“chatsoth,” division, middle, midnight ]; the people are shaken and they pass away like grass. [Job 34:20]
…He takes note of their deeds, He overthrows them in the night, and they are crushed. [Job 34:25]
Psalm 18:6 and 2 Samuel 22,
I cried to My God for help; from His Temple, He heard My voice!
My cry came before Him, into His ears!
Psalm 18:4-5 and 2 Samuel
The cords of death entangle[d] Me!
The torrents of destruction overwhelm[ed] Me!
The cords of the grave [or Sheol] coil[ed] around Me!
The snares of death confront[ed] Me!
Psalm 18:8-13 and 2 Samuel,
Smoke rose from His nostrils. Consuming fire came from His mouth, burning coals blazed out of it!
He mounted the Cherubim and flew! He soared on the Wings of the Wind!
He parted the Heavens and came down; dark clouds were under His feet.
He made darkness His covering, His canopy around Him—the dark rain clouds of the sky!
Out of the brightness of His presence the clouds advanced, with hailstones and bolts of lightning!
The Lord thundered from Heaven!
The Voice of the Most High resounded!
Psalm 18:7 and 2 Samuel,
The earth trembled and quaked, the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because He was angry!
Psalm 18:15 and 2 Samuel,
The valleys of the sea were exposed, and the foundations of the earth laid bare at your rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of breath from your nostrils!
Psalm 18:14,
He shot His arrows and scattered the enemies, great bolts of lightning and routed them!
Job 25:5-6,
Sheol is naked before God!
Destruction lies uncovered!
Psalm 18 and 2 Samuel 22,
He reached down from on high and took hold of me!
He drew Me up, out of Deep Waters!
Psalm 30:3,
O Lord, You brought Me up from the grave, from Sheol!
You spared Me from going down into the Pit!
Psalm 116:16,
You freed Me from My chains!
Psalm 30:2,
O Lord, My God, I called to You for help, and You healed Me!
Job 12:18,
He takes the shackles off put on by Kings [or takes shackles off of Kings], and ties a loincloth [or belt] around their [naked] waist.
Job 12:15,
If He holds back the waters, there is drought; if He lets them loose, they devastate the land!
Proverbs 10:25 and 30,
When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone, but the Righteous stand firm, forever! [25]
The Righteous will never be uprooted, but the wicked will not remain in the land! [30]
Job 11:13,
…if you devote your heart to Him, and stretch out your hands to Him, if you put away the sin that is in your hand, and allow no evil to dwell in your tent, then you will lift up your face without shame!
You will stand firm, and without fear!
You will surely forget your trouble, as Waters gone by!
Job 26:5,
The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters…
Zechariah 9:11-12,
Because of the blood of My Covenant with You, I will free Your prisoners from the waterless Pit [cistern or well that holds no water because it is broken, also represents a waterless, lifeless, dirt clod heart].
Return to your Fortress, O Prisoners of Hope; even now, I announce that I will restore Double to you!
Genesis 37:23-24 notes that this event refers to the House of Joseph, as Joseph was thrown into the waterless pit,
So when Joseph [meaning Jehovah Doubles], came to this brothers, they stripped him of the robe he was wearing—and they took him and threw him into the cistern [well or pit]. Now the cistern [well or pit] was empty; there was no water in it.
Psalm 107:14-20,
You led the captives in your train, as you ascended on High!
He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom, and broke their chains…
He broke down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron…
He sent forth His Word, and healed them. He rescued them from the grave!
1 Peter 3:18-22,
For Christ died for sins once, for all, the Righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made Alive by the Spirit, through whom also He went and preached to the Spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the Ark was being built. In it, only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism, that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into Heaven and is at God’s Right Hand—with Angels, Authorities, and Powers in submission to Him.
1 Peter 4:5-6.
…they will have to give account to Him who is ready to judge the Living and the dead. For this is the reason the Gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but Live according to God in regard to the Spirit.
2 Peter 2:4
Job 26:11-14,
The pillars of Heaven quake, aghast at His rebuke. By His power He churned up the sea; by His wisdom He cut Rahab to pieces…
His hand pierced the Gliding Serpent!
Who can understand the Thunder of His power?
Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? Let Him who accuses God answer Him!
Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Have you seen the Gates of the Shadow of Death? Have the Gates of Death been shown to you?
Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the Womb [of the Dawn?], and set its bars and doors in place?
Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?
Do you send lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, “Here we are!”?
2 Samuel 14:14,
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life. Rather, He devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from Him!
Psalm 68:10,
…Our God is a God who saves!
From the Sovereign Lord comes escape from death!
Psalm 30:1,
I will exalt You O Lord! You lifted Me out of the depths, and did not let My enemies gloat over Me.
Psalm 22:23,
You who fear the Lord, praise Him!
Psalm 22:24,
…For He has not despised or disdained the suffering of the Afflicted One. He has not hidden His face from Him, but has listened to His cry for help…!
Psalm 18 and 2 Samuel 22,
He rescued Me from My powerful enemy, from My foes who were too strong for Me. They confronted Me in the day of disaster, but the Lord was My support. He brought Me out, to a Spacious Place…!
Psalm 34:19-20,
The Righteous Man may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers Him from them all. He protects all His bones, not one of them will be broken!
Psalm 34:18,
The Lord is close to the brokenhearted, and those crushed in Spirit!
Psalm 30:5,
Weeping may remain for a night, but rejoicing comes in the morning!
Psalm 24:7-10,
Lift up your heads, O you Gates; be lifted up you Ancient Doors, so that the King of Glory may come in!
Who is this King of Glory?
The Lord, strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle!
Lift up your heads, O you Gates; lift them up you Ancient Doors, so that the King of Glory may come in!
Who is He, this King of Glory?
The Lord Almighty—He is the King of Glory!
Psalm 118:19-20,
Open for Me the Gates of Righteousness!
I will enter and give thanks to the Lord!
This is the Gate of the Lord, through which the Righteous may enter!
John 10:9,
I Am the Gate!
Whoever enters through Me will be saved!
John 10:3,
His Watchman opens the Gate for Him!
Psalm 118:19-22,
You have not handed Me over to the enemy, but have set My feet in a Spacious Place!
The Stone the builders rejected, has become the Capstone!
You have become My Salvation!
I will give thanks, for You answered Me!
Psalm 61:6,
Increase the days of the King’s Life, His years for many generations!
May He be enthroned in God’s presence, forever!
Appoint Your love and faithfulness to protect Him!
Then I will ever sing praise to Your Name, and fulfill My vows, day after day!
For someone who says they haven’t studied the subject your comment does a great job of presenting balance. There is a problem with seeing the cross as solely PSA or Christus Victor. It is not one to the exclusion of the other. Like many other questions that are posed in either/or terms the answer is often both. A lot more was happening on the cross than just PSA. Jesus also disarmed the rulers of this world, putting those principalities and powers to open shame (Col 2:15).
I resonate with your comment for sure, it’s why I take Anslem’s digression. Basically “Yeah PSA can make sense, but historically was never taught, therefore I lean away from it”. Theories are fun, but we should be careful to adopt them solely because they make sense. That is but 1 criteria of many.
I didn’t comment under the main post but I did enjoy reading it. I love finding people who provide thought provoking content here.
(2 posts because the comments only allow 3rd grade level discussion) I had not studied Penal Substition at all until I read this post, but I remember C.S. Lewis was pro-Christus Victor, and perhaps "more." I have studied Natural Law a lot however, especially through Etienne Gilson's "The Christian Philosophy of The Natural Law" (which I highly recommend) and I've read a lot about St. Thomas Aquinas (I need to finish The Dumb Ox by Chesterton).
I have sort of resolved to stick to what The Bible says, as it says it. I'm not claiming "Sola Scriptura" here however, per se, but rather stating that I see so much in The Bible itself that has been overlooked and left not understood. After seeing how little is understood in The Book, and how many people are so strict about what they think even though they understand so little of The Bible itself, that I caution myself against getting caught up in (or distracted by) "theology" debates per se (defined here as men stating creeds in much of their own words) because I just don't think our formal words tend to "weave into" the concepts of The Scriptures. At our Sunday School study group I often find people saying things in their own words that almost completely sync up with a particular Bible verse and verses, in which case I'll usually quote the verses out loud to encourage them by making it clearer to them, how much their statement is similar to the way of thinking in The Bible down to the verse. This really seems to encourage them.
The problems with various theologies that I see is that so many times Bible verses appear to contradict but then are reconciled by third term verses located elsewhere, because The Bible is written in a sort of 3D. As G.K. Chesterton wrote: "The mind of man is Stereoscopic, like his physical sight: he sees two separate pictures at once, yet sees all the better for that."
Anyway, usually one "theology" will take all the verses that say one thing and make arguments in favor of them in their own words. Then, another "theologian" will take the verses that say the opposite, and craft his own opposite "theology" and then the two will declare each other "anathema" or perhaps, just "wrong." But if you look deeper you can reconcile the two verse sets with a third term verse set, because usually both "theologians based their arguments on a set of verses in the first place. That ought to be the work of "theology" and it would be a work of "peace" and "reconciliation," that would have eternal impact. Another issue is that the whole Bible is synoptic: one verse says almost the same thing as another, but each verse adds a detail the other leaves out, and when combined or "calculated" or "added up" they tell a more complete story. Quick example of this. One Proverbs says: "He who stops listening to the truth will stray from the path." Another says: "He who strays from the path will come to rest in the company of the dead." So if I were to combine these two verses and say, "He who stops listening to the truth will come to rest in the company of the dead" which I don't think is a Bible verse in and of itself, but it would still be correct, even though it left out a detail. There are also many synonyms that if you don't know are synonyms, it won't process in your mind that the verses are related. And the verses with the synonyms also add details, that the other verses with the other synonyms left out, just like the Proverbs above! And those who don't see the synonyms will not accept the rebuttal because they are "blind" to the connections in the synonyms. I'm writing this in the hope that whoever reads this will look into these things and keep them in mind when they read The Bible. Example of synonyms, "Make your Face Shine upon your Servant" means that same thing as "May The Favor of The Lord Rest upon us" and also means the same thing as "Save me" and "Teach me Your Decrees" and "Speak and Answer me." These are all synonyms. If I speak to a strict interpreter (about a disputable matter) who does not even hint at a consciousness of the synonyms and their impact on the "theological" discussion I think to myself, "they can't hear what I'm trying to say because they haven't connected the synonyms. So they can't communicate on this level about the subject. They think I'm speaking gibberish! Darn it.
The best way I can describe learning the Bible is that it is a "Meta-Language" or a language that can overlay any language because it is a language of "figuratives, synonyms, analogy, and similes" etc. Example 1: These things may be taken Figuratively! For, the women represent Two Covenants!" And Example 2: "Those who Trust in The Lord are as Mount Zion" and Jesus confirms that we will "Worship in Spirit and Truth." Thus, we are, "Mount Zion" and we are "A Royal Priesthood" and as Kings we are also "Mountains." Revelation even states this although it is referring to the "bad kings" when it says: "The Seven Heads are Seven Hills. They are also Seven Kings." There also tends to be a good individual type and bad individual type and a good group type and bad group type in the Bible and the same thing happens to both, but it ends oppositely for them. The good suffer in this life and are taken into glory. The bad have glory in this life and are taken into suffering [or they can both be true at the same time but not in the same respect, if you distinguish fleshly suffering from spiritual glory vs. fleshly glory and spiritual numbness which is like suffering, although they are numb]. Examples of good type and bad type and good and bad group type: 1. Christ and Anti-Christ 2. Lion of Tribe of Judah and "your enemy The Devil who Prowls about like a Roaring Lion" 3. Wife of Noble Character [True Church] and Adulteress/Prostitute (False Assembly, a married woman who sells herself to cheat. I would list more example of good and bad individual and group types but comment will be too long.
Much of the Bible even doubles as a Dictionary of itself. As when Phillip says in John 14:8-9, "SHOW us The Father..." and Jesus replies, "Don't you KNOW Me, Phillip." So, the Dictionary side of The Bible is dog whistling to those who have ears to hear that to be "Shown" and to "Know" are closely related concepts and almost interchangeable. And there are many, many examples like this.
EXAMPLE:
One example below of verses that people get crazy about how they interpret, but look at all the verses they have OVERLOOKED related to the same subject.
Point: We all GOTTA LOOK DEEPER. Example: Usually when I ask people "can anyone know about that day or hour"? They say "No!" Because it says "***No man knows*** about that day or hour, not even the Angels in Heaven nor The Son, but Only The Father." Then they shut down and accept that the answer is a strong "No!"
HOWEVERRR... if you look deeper this is even called into question. As it also says, "***No man knows*** The Thoughts of God, except The Spirit of God. BUT, we have not been given the spirit that is of the world, but The Spirit that is Of-and-From God, that we May Understand, What He Has, Freely Given us!"
In addition, although Jesus Says that "Only The Father" knows about that Day or Hour, He then says that on a Certain Day, you will ASK THE FATHER, not The Son! So then, could John 16:23 and 25-26 apply? I’m not 100% sure, but think there is a strong possibility for further reasons explained below (I say all this because it replies to the theory of the Atonement, because there could be a lot we have overlooked, which is why I'm saying "I don't know" but I do need to read the PSA argument more closely because I've never looked into it. If it is absurd it is absurd, if it is a conclusion come to by synonyms then it could be valid. I don't know now, but want all of us to look deeper into everything with the goal of overcoming divisions, especially over particularly disputable matters (not sure if this is one). Example continued about "Can we Know That Day or Hour":
In, That Day, you will No Longer, Ask Me, Anything [Jesus Said].
I Tell you, The Truth,
The Father will Give you, Anything, you Ask,
In My Name. […]
Ask, and you will Receive, and your Joy will be Complete.
[…The remaining verse qualify "when" you will Ask The Father]
A Time is Coming, when I will… Tell you, Plainly About My Father.
In, That Day, you Will Ask, in My Name. I'm not saying that I will Ask The Father on your Behalf. No, The Father Himself Loves you, because you Loved Me...!"
So then, if "That Day" that we Ask The Father Himself, who Does Know about The Day or Hour and if "That Day" that we Ask, is before "That Day or Hour" or at the same time as It, then it is possible The Father will tell us, when we Ask, at The Proper Time. In addition...
Psalm 90 happens to say:
Return, O Lord!
How Long will it be?
Have Compassion, on Your Servants! …
May, ***The Favor*** of The Lord Our God, Rest Upon us!
Establish Our Work, for us!
Thus, take note of the word "Favor", because according to Matthew 24:37,
As it Was, in The Days of Noah,
So will it Be, At The Coming of, The Son of Man.
How was it then in The Days of Noah? Genesis 6:8,
Noah, Found ****Favor,**** in The Eye of The Lord!
Genesis 6:13 indicates that when Noah found Favor in God’s Sight, God Spoke to Noah,
So, God Answered-Spoke-and-Gave-News, to Noah,
“I Am Going to Pervert-Corrupt-and-Put an End, To All Flesh.
For, The Earth is Filled with Violence-Cruelty-and-Injustice, because of them.”
Genesis 6:22,
Noah did Everything, just as God Commanded him. [Hastened and did not Delay, to Obey His Commands]
Then, God Spoke to Noah, again. Genesis 7:1,
Then, The Lord, Spoke to Noah, [and thereby showed him Favor, because God Found him Righteous in the midst of his own, warped and crooked Generation. Thus, to be Found Righteous is to Receive Favor, and thus, to be Spoken to by God]
“Go, Into The Ark, you and your whole Family!
Because I Have, Found you, Righteous [he Found Favor], in This Generation!
Again, in Matthew 24:37-39, Jesus Says:
As It Was, in The Days of Noah,
So Will It Be, At The Coming Of, The Son of Man.
Genesis 6:8,
Noah, Found Favor, in The Eye of The Lord!
Genesis 6:13,
So, God Answered-Spoke-and-Gave-News, to Noah…!
Thus, in Psalm 90:17 and 12-13, one asks to be like Noah, or to be Found Righteous, and thus, Spoken to by God, and then it asks how long it will be until The Lord Returns,
May, The Favor of The Lord Our God, Rest Upon, us! […]
Return, O Lord!
How Long will it be?
Again, Matthew 24:37-39 says,
As It Was, in The Days of Noah,
So Will It Be, At The Coming Of, The Son of Man.
For, in The Days Before The Flood,
People were Eating and Drinking,
Marrying and Giving in Marriage,
Up to The Day, Noah Entered, The Ark.
And They,
Knew Nothing, of What Would Happen,
Till The Flood Came, and Took them All, Away.
Matthew 24:37-39,
…Up to The Day, Noah Entered, The Ark!
Psalm 90:12-13 and 17,
Very-Well-Afterward-Set-us-Upright-Veritably-and-in-The-Truth!
Teach us to Number our Days, that we may,
Come-Enter-and-Present to You,
A Heart of Wisdom!
Return, O Lord!
How Long will it be?
Psalm 75:1 seems to equate “Entering” the Ark with Praise and Thanksgiving to God by Obeying Him, from The Heart, and Giving Him Praise and Thanksgiving,
We Give You Thanks, O God!
We Give Thanks, for Your Name is Near!
Men Proclaim, Your Wonderful Works!
You Say:
“I Choose,
The Proper-and-Appointed-Place-and-Time-and-it-is-I-Who-Take-and-Receive-The-Congregation!
It Is I, Who Judge, Uprightly!”
[So, God Judges when our Obedience is “Complete” it seems, because it also says, “We will be Ready to Punish Every Act of Disobedience, once your Obedience, is Complete!” (2 Cor. 10:6) So, it sounds like someone is “Hastening” The Day of God (2 Peter 3:12) when they think, speak, and act according to Psalm 119:60 which says, “I will Hasten, and Not Delay, to Obey, Your Commands!]
Paul also writes in 1 Thess. 5:4: You are not in Darkness so That Day should Overtake you, like A Thief!" And Revelation 3:3 says, "If you Do Not Wake Up, I will Come Like A Thief, and you WILL NOT KNOW, at What Hour I will Come to-and-upon you!" Revelation 16:15 also says: Blessed is he who is Awake [and equates it to also Remaining Clothed]!" And Proverbs says:
The Commandment is A Lamp, The Teaching A Light... When you AWAKE, They will Speak to you!" As Wisdom says in Proverbs: "Repent, at My Rebuke, and Behold, I will Pour Out My Spirit On you; [that means] I will Make Known My Thoughts-and-Words to you!" And Isaiah says: I will Pour Out My Spirit, on your Offspring!" and Paul says: "We Are, His Offspring!" Therefore, "Hallelujah!" So then, as Hebrews 3:15 warns,
Today, if you Listen-Hear-and-Understand, His Voice,
Do Not Harden-or-Make-Stubborn, your Hearts!
Psalm 85:8,
I Will, Listen-Hear-and-Understand, What God, The Lord, Has to Say!
Proverbs 23:26,
My Son,
Give Me your Heart.
And, Let your Eyes, Delight,
In, My Path-and-Way-and-Course-and-Journey-of-Life!
Psalm 119:35,
Direct me, In The Path-and-Way-and-Course-and-Journey-of-Life,
Of Your Commands,
For, There, I Find, Delight!
Psalm 119:47, 96, and 97,
I Delight, in Your Commandments, because I Love Them!
To All Perfection, I See a Limit!
But Your Commandment, is Infinite-Boundless-and-Eternal!
O, How I Love Your Law, I Meditate on It, All Day Long!
Psalm 143:8 and 10,
Teach me, The Way, I Should Walk!
For, to You, I Lift Up, my Soul! […]
Teach me to Do, Your Will!
For You Are, my God!
Isaiah 48:17,
I Am, The Lord your God,
Who Teaches you, for your Benefit-and-Profit.
Who Directs you, In The Way, you Should, Go.
Psalm 32:8,
I will Instruct you.
And Teach-and-Point-Out-to you,
The Way, you Should Go.
I will Counsel-and-Advise-and-Guide you,
With My Eye, Upon you.
I have a theory of when this date will be but it also is uncertain (regarding what it is referring to, because their are several possibilities, but according to Daniel 12: "from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed-and-Happy is the man who remains-abides-and-waits, and reaches the end of The 1,335 Days!" So then, if Israel rebuilds that Temple and slaughters that red heifer, and resumes sacrifice, then when it stops, and the abomination spoken of through Daniel is setup, then we know how many days their will be: 1,290 and 1,335. That is at least 3.5 year or more warning! (Maybe we can create two theologies are argue over 1,290 and 1,335 days! But isn't it funny how the whole Bible is written "Stereoscopically"? I have more thoughts, but I'm not a "dispensationalist" or a "preterist" or "partial preterist." I'm just "Keeping Watch!" Because "my eyes stay open through The Watches of The Night, as I Meditate on Your Promises!" And, "On my Bed I Remember You! I Think of You, Through The Watches of The Night!"
Hosea 5:8,
Sound The Ram's Horn...! The Battle Cry...!
Lead On, O Benjamin!
[Netanyahu? Has a Benjamite ever led Israel? Other than Saul, and Paul, and The Israel of God? But now, "As is it with the good so it is with the sinner!" And ye'es, Hosea was written after Saul and David.]
Jeremiah 6:1,
Flee for Safety, O People of **Benjamin,** from the midst of Jerusalem!
1 Corinthians 14:8,
Again, if The Trumpet sounds a muffled call, who will Prepare for Battle?
Psalm 30:4,
Sing to the LORD, all you godly ones! Praise his Holy Name!
1 Corinthians 14:8,
Again... [A Loud Voice, Like] The Trumpet...!
Revelation 19:5,
Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you who serve Him, and those who fear Him, small and great alike!
Also, hoping I help garner interest in your page by comments and replies! C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain, pg. 150,
You may have noticed, that the books you really love,
Are Bound Together, by A Secret Thread.
George McDonald, The Princess and The Goblin, chapter 3,
“…Follow, The Thread…!”
G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy, pg. 66,
Love… A Transcendental Tie, Without any earthly Reason…!
The Thread of Thought, Leads to The Throne!
C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves, pg. 67,
…The Same Secret Road…!
G.K. Chesterton, in A Father Brown novel, explains that the detective,
“Caught [the man] with an unseen hook and an invisible Line which is long enough to let him wander to the ends of the world and still bring him back, with A Twitch of THE THREAD!”
As G.K. Chesterton also says, in Homesick at Home,
The Shortest Way Home, is Round The World.
And if you can accept the connection: C.S. Lewis, in Miracles, Chp 6,
For, "What you call a bulge in Devonshire [Heaven] is really a dent in Cornwall [Earth]” and in a sense you can't refute it. Why? Because a bulge in Devonshire always is a dent in Cornwall!" But, you must know the tang of nature before you can know the sweetness of Super-Nature. And, a triangle is meant to represent a road receding into the distance, but a two-dimensional creature can only see it as a triangle, the same shape as a dunces cap. And by no argument can you convince him that this triangle, which is the same shape used to represent a dunces cap in one context, is meant here to represent a road, receding into the distance [round the world and all the way home to heaven and the throne, with a twitch of the thread of thought].
Dear Ryan, Brother in Christ,
After some research it seems that Baptist's Baptism is accepted for Catholicism, 'I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost' and full immersion in water is fine. So, to that degree you are not sinning.
It is against Catholic Doctrine (a Sin) for Catholics to worship with non-Catholics, but it sounds like you are a Southern Baptist that sometimes joins your Father and his family to sit in on Mass, which is fine as long as you do not receive the Host.
If a Catholic worships with non-Catholics he must Confess this Sin before receiving the Host in the State of Grace.
So, if only sitting-in Catholic Mass, you and your Father's family have not sinned (they, as Catholics should inform you and prevent you if needed with Prudence to protect the Sacrament.)
God Bless., Steve
This is really a thing? I have nothing but love for my Catholic brothers and sisters but I didn't know they consider it sin to worship our God together. Strange.
there is a major nuance happening that is missing from Steves assertion. Namely, high protestant versions of the eucharist. Not common evangelical "worship" because...to be honest...it's not worship.
Say more about that. When you go to the Baptist church, you're saying that is not worship?
I mean I could write multiple articles on this topic haha but yes that's correct. 1) doesn't fit the biblical criteria for worship 2) is recent in development and 3) is utterly unfounded in the early church.
Interesting. That seems like a narrow and pretty legalistic view of worship and what God "accepts" as worship, no? I mean, if he was able to think of a dude dancing naked as worship surely what happens at a Protestant church on Sunday is worship.
Hey Steven, I hope you’re willing to take some time to converse. And yeah, I don’t go up and take Communion out of respect, although I did, coincidently, go through Catholic confirmation because my buddy Matt liked to go hangout with friends from school at the class in junior high and I would walk down to the Catholic Church (St. Adelaide’s in Highland, Ca) with him (he also was not Catholic per se) and/but we actually did go through Confirmation! I actually forgot about that or its possible implications until now. We were more sincere than half the others in the class to be sure. Nevertheless, out of respect and sincerity, I haven’t taken communion at a Catholic Church. However, I believe with all my being that my Grandma Charlotte is in Heaven, and she was Catholic, and she was Italian, and friends with many influential Italian priests in the Bay Area from the 1940’s till the late 1990’s when she moved to Seattle, and I will see her again. (She lived to be 99 and drove her car by herself until she was 98 in 2020).
But to be sure, I hereby declare, as an adult, in full moral responsibility, that I do not consider myself to be a part of any “Denomination” per se, not even “Southern Baptist” or “Non-Denominational” or “Catholic” insofar as it represents a damned “denomination” at this point. It is the word “denomination” that I perfectly Hate, not the members or their doctrines per se, but I Hate and Detest and Abhor Division. When I finally started reading the Bible in late 2016, one of the earliest questions I asked myself and then God, with raging anger was: “Why are there all these ‘DENOMINATIONS!?’” So then, I simply consider myself a Christian, a member of THE, Universal Church, and not only semantically, and I hope to help to re-unite all the sincere, among all so-called “denominations” and I don’t say that lightly. As it is written: “Is Christ Divided!?” But “God is Love!” and “Love, The Bond of Perfect Unity!” and “God Is One.” But, “If A Kingdom is Divided Against Itself, It Cannot Stand.” Nevertheless, “There Must be, Divisions-and-Heresies among you, so that those who are Approved may be Made Manifest, Among you!” You yourself believe in "extra ecclesiam nulla salus", yet paragraph 841, which is given to us under the heading: “The Church’s Relationship with the Muslims” from Vatican II says:
The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.
So then, if The Catholic Church is correct enough to include Muslims, then will you not accept the “Protestants” when they come and seek re-unification?
Even Peter himself, the first Pope, notes that even those destroyed during the Flood of Noah were Preached to in Sheol itself, and of course, “When He Ascended on High, He Led Captivity Captive, and Gave Gifts to men!”
So then, is the gig not up? Can’t other Believers (who Believe in Christ and are not Muslim) be saved? Or do you prioritize utter heresy [The Muslim's Heresy over and above a kinder, gentler, even less substantive division/heresy?] Ask your Bishop, then. He will tell you. Arrogance will be offended by this comment. Humility will see nothing but sincerity in the question and seek nothing but reconciliation.
“By the same measure you use, it will be measured to you.” That is why one of the works of God and works of faith is to “Forgive.” But, if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive yours.”
As it is also written: “One man eats everything. Another eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not look down on him who eats only vegetables (as Daniel did in The Book of Daniel and looked healthier than those who ate the King’s portion) and vice versa. For, each gives thanks to God. But, he who doubts is condemned. Even as John 6:35 says, that great chapter of division among “grumblers” and “faultfinders”:
“He who Comes, to Me, will Never Go Hungry! And He who Believes [which is therefore self-evidently connected to ‘Coming’: “He who Comes”] will Never be Thirsty!”
But wait! It also says: “Blessed are those who [DO] Hunger and Thirst, After Righteousness!
[But only] Because, they Will be, Satisfied!”
And, Why is that? Why will they be Satisfied? Those spoken of in John 6 and The Beatitudes?
Who then will Hunger and Thirst? Here is your answer: Amos 8:11,
Behold, The Days are Coming,” Declares, The Lord God, “When I Will Send, A Famine, on The Land!
Not, A Famine of Bread or Thirst for Water, But, A Famine of Listening-Hearing-and-Understanding, The Word of The Lord!”
However, according to Proverbs 10:3,
The Lord Does Not Suffer, The Soul of The Justified-Just-and-thereby-Righteous, To Famine!
Amos 8:11,
Not, A Famine of Bread or Thirst for Water, But, A Famine of Listening-Hearing-and-Understanding, The Word of The Lord!”
Psalm 111:5,
He Provides Food, for those who Fear-and-Revere Him!
He Remembers, His Covenant, Forever!
Psalm 37:18-20,
The Days of The Blameless are Known to The Lord,
And their Inheritance, will Persevere-and-Endure, Forever!
In, Times of Disaster, they will Not Wither!
In Days of Famine, they will Enjoy Plenty!
Psalm 119:54,
Your Statutes-and-Testimonies, are my Food Portion-and-The-Theme, of My Song...!
I was baptized as a Lutheran as a baby, I think in Minnesota, because my mom is Scandinavian. In 6th grade a Baptist Church that was across a field from our apartment complex had a Vacation Bible School going on and I went. I prayed for a dog/golden retriever for a year and my Sunday school teachers sent a card of a different type of Golden Retriever, and when we went to the pound the dog that turned up there, that I saved $40 for from my birthday and Christmas presents, looked exactly like the dog in the card. His name was Tomack and he lived to be 18.
When we moved across town it just so happened that another Baptist Church was within walking distance, so I’ve attended that Church since summer after 6th grade. They had no strict “theological code” that they ever communicated to me. You can’t summarize God’s Word, because It Is Infinite. As it was with St. Thomas Aquinas: “According to historical accounts, Thomas Aquinas stopped speaking and writing near the end of his life, famously stating that ‘all that I have written seems like straw compared to what has now been revealed to me,’ signifying a profound mystical experience that left him speechless and focused on a deeper understanding of God beyond words; essentially, he ‘never spoke again’ in the sense that he ceased to engage in extensive theological writing after this revelation.”
Ye’es, and although I cease from “theological writing” although I never engaged in it in the first place, I do not cease from Speaking God’s Word!
Again, in seventh grade I went to St. Adelaide’s in Highland, Ca for their confirmation classes, although I was baptized Lutheran as a baby and at 18 years old I was baptized again in a Baptist Church, which is valid, perhaps making my confirmation also valid!
In D.C. me and a buddy went to Catholic Church and Capital Hill Baptist every other week (again, I didn’t receive Communion out of respect or perhaps a miscalculation).
Now, I have a question for you. If I understand, almost without limit, things in The Scriptures/Bible that no one has apparently understood in approximately 2,000 years, why is that? And also, I think you ought to hear it, and I would greatly appreciate if you shared your opinion on these matters.
I’ll leave an example below. In all my reading, I don’t see anything that should divide the Church/es. I do see, however, that there may have been a need, in the past and present, to carefully craft doctrines in human words, because many with bad intentions have crept in among us, but in light of verses that Speak Directly, it would be cool to have your opinion about whether or not these verses are indeed Speaking, or if we need such “theologies” in light of a Revelation that is self-evident and complete. Should we not shut our own mouths? For, “If anyone speaks, he should do it as one Speaking, The Very Words of God.” Example:
1 Corinthians 2:7,
We Speak, God's Secret Wisdom, A Wisdom, that Has been Hidden, And, That God Destined-and-Fore-Ordained, For, Our Glory-and-Honor, Before Time-or-The-World, Began.
Proverbs 8:22-23,
The Lord, Possessed Me [Wisdom],
In, The Beginning of His Path-and-Way-and-Journey-and-Course-of-Life!
Before-and-East-of, His Deeds of Old!
I, [Wisdom] was Anointed-Poured-Out-and-Established, From Eternity!
As-Head-Highest-Summit-and-Chief,
Before, Time-or-The-World Began!
As it says in Genesis 1:1,
In, The Beginning, God Created, The Heavens...
As it says in Proverbs 8:27,
When He, Prepared-Established-and-Made-Firm, The Heavens, I [Wisdom] was There!
Again, Genesis 1:1 says,
In, The Beginning, God Created, The Heavens, And, The Earth.
Again, Wisdom says in Proverbs 8:27,
When He, Marked-Out-Engraved-and-Cut,
The Foundations, Of, The Earth,
I, was There!
Genesis 1:1-2 continues,
Now, The Earth, was Formless and Void, Darkness Was, Over, The Face of The Deep!
Again, Wisdom was “There.”
Proverbs 8:24 and 27-29,
When there were, No Deeps, I [Wisdom] was Brought Forth!
When He, Marked-Out-Engraved-and-Cut, The-Vaulted-Circle-of-The-Horizon, Over, The Face of The Deep,
Then, I, Was Beside Him, as a Master-Craftsman-and-Supreme-Workman…!
[Silence, I will consider, is consent that these verse are correctly curated, and thereby curated by The Holy Spirit, and that I have Freedom, to partake in unity and communion with any sincere Believers anywhere, among all The Church, even if I refrain from "Disputable Matters" for, "The Lord's Servants Must Not Quarrel Over Disputable Matters!"
Be careful, that What The Prophets have Said, Does Not Happen to you: Proverbs 15:12,
The Mocker, Does Not Love, The Mediator-and-Peace-Maker!
But, according to Isaiah 29:20-21,
The Wisdom of The [Mocking] "Wise," will Vanish!
The Intelligence of The Intelligent [Mockers], will Disappear!
The Ruthless, will Vanish! [The Breath of The Ruthless is like A Storm, Driving Against The Wall [of your Salvation!]
The Mockers, will Disappear! [Proverbs 21:24: Mocker -That his his Name!]
And All, who Have An Eye, for Evil, will be Cut Down;
Those who, with A Word, make a man out, to be Guilty.
Who Ensnare, The Mediator, at The Gate!
And with False Testimony, Deprive the Innocent of Justice-and-Justification!
As the Mediator says, in Psalm 69:12,
Those who Sit At The Gate, Mock me, and I am The Song of Drunkards. [those, Who Ensnare, The Mediator, at The Gate!]
Amos 5:10,
You Hate The One, who Mediates, at The Gate!
And Despise Him, who Speaks, with Integrity!
Proverbs 14:9,
Fools Mock, at Making Amends [Amends/Mediation], for Sin!
But, Goodwill, is Found, among The Upright!
Proverbs 15:12,
The Mocker, Does Not Love, The Mediator.
[You Hate, The One, who Mediates, at The Gate!]
Nor will he, Consult, The Wise.
Jude 1:18-19,
...Mockers... Cause-Divisions-Factions-and-Sects....!
Proverbs 10:12,
Hatred Stirs Up, Conflict-Strife-Quarrels-and-Divisions,
But, Love Covers Over, All, Wrongs.
Romans 8:33-34,
Who Will Bring any Charge, Against those whom, God Has Chosen?
It is God, Who Justifies!
Who is He, That Condemns?
Isaiah 50:8,
He-Who Justifies Me, is Near;
Who will Contend-and-Quarrel with Me?
Let us stand together: Who is My Adversary?
Let him Come Near-and-Approach Me, to My Face!
Surely, The Lord GOD, Helps Me.
Who is there, to Condemn Me?
See, they will All, Wear Out, like A Garment;
The Moths, will Devour them.…
Proverbs 15:12,
The Mocker, Does Not Love, The Mediator.
[You Hate, The One, who Mediates, at The Gate!]
Nor will he, Consult, The Wise.
I think that if you’re doubting PSA because the effects of sin are still around, I think you’ve misunderstood something somewhere. Christ satisfying the legal demands of our sin doesn’t undo the effects of our sin any more than sentencing a murderer brings the deceased back to life.
Not sure what you're saying here.
I’m saying I think your critique of Penal Substitutionary Atonement has a faulty foundation which is resulting in you making categorical errors to prove your argument.
I just saw there’s a typo in my comment… stupid autotext and fat fingers 😆
It's possible, but the most broad-sweeping defeater is that no early church father in the east or the west ever held to such a view.
I would disagree. Justin Martyr described PSA in his dialogue with Trypho for example. But beyond that, Isa 53 is a clear expression of PSA.
But perhaps the issue is bigger than a comment thread 😉
Bless you man
Justin Martyr didn't have PSA in mind, this is clear from the whole of his writings. Keep in mind, the WHOLE of PSA isn't, let's say, heretical or wrong. I think the view can be melded and often is in the west, but it is a fact that it was not heard of until Anslem.
For example btw: “He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin.” (Dialogue with Trypho, 100)
As someone who does hold to PSA, I don’t think one has to pick and choose atonement theories as all have truth to them since what Christ accomplished was more complex than a one dimensional act.
It’s not any more “Nestorian” to say that Jesus took the wrath of God against sin for us than to say that God died at all. I think you’re leaning too much into the gnostic view that Jesus was not physical at all but was only divine or spiritual. Jesus died like a human, which is a real and important consequence of sin.
Unsure if you are responding to the article or someone else, but if its to the article-- you're not grasping the argument
Nothing about this is leaning into gnosticism. You pinned nestorian vs gnosticism which would assume you dont know the actual positions
The fact that you argue that Reformed views tend to say that the Eucharist only represents the blood and the body is a caricature of Protestant beliefs. All historic protestant traditions affirm real presence, even historic Baptists.
I'm not finding this addressed in your comments. You began by saying: "Christ’s death and resurrection restore the broken relationship between God and humanity, focusing on theosis (union with God)." I agree that that is the result, but you don't propose a mechanism. Why should Christ's death and resurrection be necessary to restore the rift between God and man? Why not just a judicial edict by God, who is the ultimate arbiter of justice, that unconditional reconciliation will be offered by faith in Christ absent the crucifixion and resurrection? It seems to me that something of cosmic importance has happened through the death of the innocent Christ, the shedding of his blood, and his subsequent victory over death.
Elsewhere you remark on the injustice of an innocent punished to exonerate the guilty, yet that seems to me to be the very mechanism that God established with Israel's sacrificial system of atonement. So it suggests to me that there is something else going on here. The cross was a vehicle for restoration and reconciliation with God, absolutely, but I would say that the death of Jesus on the cross was in some way a necessary atonement for sin, or else, it seems to me, that the cross drama is entirely arbitrary and the humanity could have been reconciled by heavenly decree. I'd be interested in your thoughts, and apologies if I've missed your dealing with this question elsewhere.
Mechanism?
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matthew 27:46
Great verse both in psalms and in matthew!
I appreciate this argument you have laid out. I have always touted myself as a "general fan of PSA" but I have learned that PSA means different things to different people and that my view of PSA was perhaps too simple to reflect the term.
I am really struggling to articulate my question as I type, delete, type, and delete. I always viewed PSA as "Christ choosing to die to take on my sin and die for it so that I could be forgiven, because he loves me". Would you argue against this view, or would you say something like "that view is fine, but PSA takes it much much further".
I think part of my confusion is I know some think PSA has on over-emphasis on wrath. Some don't see Christ willingness to go the cross. Some then see the financial accounting side of PSA as the issue. That Christ died to "wipe my sin debt away".
Thank you for your time, I look forward to your response!
Your description is a really mere view that could technically fit into any view of salvation. PSA describes each component under the umbrella that Jesus took on God's wrath, which is why it is self-defeating for many reasons but mainly that...God's wrath still exists.
That makes sense. I appreciate your response as well as your initial post. It helped me see why people have problems with PSA in the first place. I feel like I have a more wholistic view than I had before reading it!
I love how Jesus told us to forgive before there was ever a sacrifice for our forgiveness. According to PSA, Jesus commanded us to do something that the Father himself was incapable of doing. And that's just the craziest notion in the world.
Proverbs 13:13,
He who Despises The Word, will be in Severe-Debt to It, but he who Fears the Commandment, will be Rewarded-with-A-Great-Gift-of-Grace.
Great article and a great discussion too. Ive been struggling with how to articulate balance on these two views but this initial post and ensuing discussion have provided some enlightenment.
Ryan, great article. I can only assume you have read Lamb of the Free?
Yes!! If PSA is all there was I could never be a Christian! The orthodox view saved my life!
Much of this sounds like strawman arguments, however I haven't read JI Packer and don't know what he said. I like William Lane Craig on this subject.
I too like WLC. However, what would be straw?